But by far the worst thing that editors do is to unleash those anonymous vandals known as copy-editors.
“Some Thoughts About Writing” by Thomas Sowell
When Wave broached the subject of editing (or lack therein) in m/m and gay romantic fiction—a subject dear to both our hearts—I quickly realized it was going to turn into a topic too complex to handle in one column.
I think it says a great deal about Wave and her team of reviewers that they understand that every book is a collaboration, and that to some extent the failure of a book is the failure of editor and publisher. It is only the self-published author who can take complete and utter responsibility for their work’s success. Or, less happily, failure.
At the same time, a work of fiction—even light and pulpy romantic fiction—is a deeply personal thing. It’s not like putting together a sales report. It’s not like writing any kind of non-fiction. It is the stuff of one’s dreams and fears and fantasies. This is why writers don’t react well to negative reviews. The reviewer may say that it’s nothing personal all she or he likes, but one’s fiction is the most personal thing out there.
This is why writers also don’t always respond well to the editing process although there is no greater gift to the professional writer than the opportunity to work with an editor.
When I use the term “editor” in this context, I mean a content editor and not a copyeditor. Good copyeditors are a necessary evil. In their own way, they’re priceless beyond pearls, and many of the problems that authors have with copyeditors are more accurately laid at the door of the publisher. A publisher who doesn’t place strict limitations on the authority of the house copyeditors is asking for trouble. And usually gets it.
Or, as Sowell put it:
In fact, what is surprising is that anyone would authorize people who are not writers, and who do not know the subject matter, to over-ride people who are writers and who do know the subject matter. Add to this the fact that a book may be written and rewritten over a period of years, while the copy-editor has at most only a few weeks in which to second-guess all the stylistic decisions that were made by the author after far more deliberation.
To define our terms for those unfamiliar with how most publishing houses work, a content editor is usually the editor who acquires the project (and usually the author and the author’s hang-ups with it) and then works with the author to develop the project to meet its maximum potential. In the early stages of a writer’s career, the editor fills much of the role of teacher and mentor. In the later stages, not so much, and yet in those later stages the editor will be the writer’s most trusted confidante and ally in the work.
Authors desperately need editors they can trust. Perhaps even more in the middle-age of their career than in the beginning. In the beginning you have no idea what you’re doing. You have nothing to lose. You’re willing to take chances, to gamble, to have unsafe se—well, anyway. It’s different. Later on…you do have something to lose, and offering a rough draft or first draft to a new editor is like having to get naked and stand there in a harsh, unyielding light, painfully aware that you’ve got laugh lines in places you don’t laugh. It’s so much easier if you’re disrobing in front of someone who you know loves you and respects you and cares about what’s best for you. You being the work you do.
Strictly speaking, copyeditors are responsible for catching typos, grammatical, and spelling errors, catching continuity errors, and fact-checking. Copyeditors are also responsible for making sure text conforms to the house style guide, assuming there is such an abomination.
Sowell again:
In all of this, the style manual is an instrument of power for the copy-editor, while engaging in a compulsive activity in which readers have long since been forgotten. There is nothing wrong with style manuals. But, as with so many other aspects of life, good principles can become terrible as fetishes—and fetishes are what the style manuals have become in the hands of copy-editors, who treat them as if they had come down from Mount Sinai on tablets of stone.
Cast in this role, style manuals have become anti-style manuals. Since style is a variation on a convention, rigid conformity is the antithesis of style. Ironically, the University of Chicago Manual of Style itself says: “Few of the rules contained in this book are inviolable.”
There is an increasing idea, in epublishing in particular, that copyeditors are responsible for “improving text” or — as I read on one site, “copy editors will make cuts to the text to improve it and make it more suitable for publishing.”
Excuse me while I have a stroke. All things pertaining to style and substance, are the realm of the content editor. Allowing copyeditors to supersede the authority of content editors is like allowing the janitorial staff in on the strategic planning sessions of a Fortune 500 company.
However, I’ll save the discussion of copyeditors and house style manuals for another post. There’s no question that editing in our genre is hit or miss, and the question of jurisdiction merely complicates the situation. Most indie and ebook publishers now grasp that readers do expect a book to be “edited,” and that generally translates into copyediting, which is something almost any reader can pick up on. Content editors are oddly undervalued these days — and not just in our little corner of the publishing world. Though there is no single other person more crucial to the development of a writer or the success of a book than the content editor, they’re almost treated like a disposable commodity.
For a truly eloquent essay on the subject, read “Black Day for the Blue Pencil” by Blake Morrison.
Writers have done little to clarify the role of editors, either. Where the experience of being edited goes well, they’re grateful, but the more publicised cases are when the experience is bad. Henry James called editing “the butcher’s trade”. Byron associated it with emasculation and, he said, would “have no gelding”. DH Lawrence compared it to trying “to clip my own nose into shape with scissors”. And John Updike says: “It’s a little like going to … the barber”, adding, “I have never liked haircuts.” Or listen to the condescension of Nabokov: “By editor I suppose you mean proofreader.” There are, of course, many different kinds of editor – from fact- checkers and OKers (as they’re known at the New Yorker), to line-editors and copy editors, to editors who grasp the big picture but skip the detail. But in popular mythology they’re lumped together as bullyboys, bouncers or, to quote Nabokov again, “pompous avuncular brutes”.
But we’ve all got our thoughts and opinions on the subject, so I thought before we opened this up to the usual community discussion, it would be useful to hear what some actual editors have to say. I interviewed four of my own editors — I don’t pretend that this is a broad or statistically accurate survey. I do know that these four editors operate like the mainstream editors I’ve had the pleasure of working with, so traditional editing does exist within our genre, and a traditional approach to editing is what we writers should be looking for when the time comes to pick a publisher.
The majority of my m/m work has been edited by Judith David, Senior Editor of Loose Id Publishing and MLR Press. Judi has been an editor for over twenty years. I haven’t worked with her that long, but I have worked with her the longest of any of my editors. Our work together includes the Adrien English series and the Dangerous Ground series. Next to Judi, I’ve worked longest with Sasha Knight, Senior Editor of Samhain Publishing. Sasha has been editing for over five years. She edits the Holmes & Moriarity series and one of the novellas that I consider my best work, The Dickens With Love. Nicole Kimberling of Blind Eye Books edited Strange Fortune, which basically involved teaching a crash course in spec fiction. Nikki has been an editor for four years. She’s that rarity, a writer’s editor who is also an award-winning author in her own right. And last, but not least, is Deborah Nemeth, Freelance Developmental Editor for Carina Press. She’s been a content editor for five years. I’ve worked the shortest amount of time with Deb, and that book was the reissue of Snowball in Hell, but our interaction indicated to me that she exhibits all the qualities I look for in an editor. Blake Morrison puts it so perfectly; I certainly can’t say it better:
Perhaps I’ve been unusually lucky, but in my experience, editors, far from coercing and squashing writers, do exactly the opposite, elucidating them and drawing them out, or, when they’re exhausted and on the point of giving up (like marathon runners hitting the wall), coaxing them to go the extra mile.
I asked Judi, Sasha, Nikki, and Deb a variety of questions that arose from an earlier conversation with Wave, starting with their qualifications for the job:
Judi: The qualifications that got me my first editing position were twofold: I had specialized knowledge in a very particular field, and I had a track record in writing about that field. The publishers came to me with a proposal. No (I did not start as a copyeditor). I started as a writer and assignment editor, although I’ve since done copy editing.
Sasha: I graduated university with a BA in Liberal Studies with an emphasis on business and literature. Back in high school and college I edited various school journals. I’ve been a grammar geek for as long as I can remember and have studied (and in some cases dissected and written theses on) medieval literature up through contemporary works. I’m a lifelong romance and genre fiction reader. I considered moving to NY to pursue editing there, but with the growth of digital publishing in the early 2000s, I decided to put my knowledge to good use that way rather than moving across the country to try to break in to mainstream publishing. Even in the early 2000s I believed that digital publishing was the wave of the future, and I wanted to be a part of it and help it grow.
Nikki: I just perceived, through my writer’s group and through participating in writing workshops that I was good at reading what’s on the page and understanding what might be missing or going wrong and went for it. Content editing is highly instinctive. I think a person’s pretty much got to have the knack for it already and then hone those instincts via experience and self study. (I recommend Thomas McCormack’s book, The Fiction Editor, the Novel and the Novelist for a deeply philosophical perspective on the art.) I have never been a copyeditor. I don’t actually think I’d be very good at that. I don’t like rules that much.
Deb: My first editing jobs were for small epublishers where there was little-to-no training and not much expectation that we do more than correct spelling and punctuation, so I can tell you from experience that the quality of editing varies widely across digital publishers. At that time I had few qualifications beyond an English degree and a copy of The Chicago Manual of Style, but I did a lot of studying on my own, taking classes and reading books on the craft of writing, to strengthen my understanding of the components of good fiction.
In 2007 I met Angela James at a conference and was so impressed, I immediately approached her about a job. I’ve been fortunate to receive a lot of on-the-job training from her, first at Samhain Publishing and then at Carina Press, where she’s conducted training for all developmental editors.
Even though most of Carina Press’s developmental editors have previous experience with traditional NY pubs, Angie still oversees the process closely, checking edits, edit letters, rejection letters and revise-and-resubmit letters of each new editor until she’s comfortable with his or her style and skill level.
How many (rough estimate) editors are employed or freelance at your publishing house? How many copyeditors? Any editors pulling double duty?
Judi: Combined, about 35.
Sasha: 12 content editors. 15 copy editors.
Nikki: Blind Eye Books has one content editor, and works with a pool of about four freelance copyeditors. I pull double duty as managing editor and content editor.
Deb: Carina Press has 13 freelance development editors and 9 freelance copyeditors. None of us pull double duty.
What exactly do you do? What’s a typical day like for you?
Judi: I work on contract for a limited number of clients. Two of those clients are publishers. In a typical week, I evaluate one or two manuscripts or proposals for acceptance (including working with the author to develop the proposal or manuscript to the point that it’s acceptable), edit one or two stories depending on ms length, commission, write, develop or edit the content and do layout of a national nonprofit’s quarterly publication, develop or edit the content and do layout of a school board national nonprofit’s quarterly publication, advise authors who have question or issues with WIPs, and develop resources for editors.
Sasha: I get up around 7am. First thing I do is a run through my email. This can take me anywhere from thirty minutes to three hours or more, depending on what I need to take care of. I handle the more administrative duties at this time—I go over blurb forms, tip sheets, cover art forms. I look over final line edits. I send out rejection letters or contract offers. I look over digital ARCs to make sure the final product is perfect.
Once my inbox is empty and all outstanding administrative duties are complete, I start my editing day. Keep in mind that by now I’ve been working for 2-5 hours. I try to put in a minimum of 6-8 hours of editing a day. This is strictly editing time, not any of the administrative duties I mentioned above. I do two to three detailed rounds of edits on every book I contract. The first round I focus on the bigger story issues. Pacing. Plotting. Character and story arcs. Timelines. The second and third rounds I focus on making sure the previous content edits flow correctly and address any additional issues that crop up, while also focusing on line edits.
When I’ve accomplished my editing goal for the day, I switch to reading submissions. This takes me up to bedtime. And then the next day I start all over again.
Nikki: On a day that I am managing editor, I check and respond to email, check out google alerts on our company and authors, check sales and stock levels at the both the print and digital distributors, write checks, pay bills, fulfill any orders that have come in via our website, arrange guest blogs, giveaways and other promotions for the company, coordinate contacts between the illustrator and the production department, the copyeditor and the author, check the timelines for projects, talk to the interns, go to the bank, go to the shipping office—things like that. Essentially, I do business.
On days that I am editing a MS I turn off the email, put on a playlist that I have made that matches the feel of the MS I am editing and go at it for between six and fourteen hours. I stop when either I’m too hungry to continue or I come to some point in the MS that I need to contact the author about.
Deb: I usually start my day with email—answering author questions, communicating pub dates, routing cover copy. This morning I made an offer of publication to one of my authors. The bulk of my workday is spent editing, either developmental or line edits.
If I’m doing developmental edits, I examine all aspects of the story, from character development to structure, pacing, viewpoint and plot, with an eye to giving our readers the most riveting, emotionally satisfying read possible. I may ask an author to write a new beginning or ending, or consider changing the viewpoint in certain scenes, or conflate characters, or cut exposition.
If I’m line editing I focus on clarity and style and grammar. Other tasks I might spend time on include reviewing copyedits that have been returned from the copyeditor. Evenings and weekends I often read submissions and prepare reader reports, maybe writing a revise-and-resubmit letter for a submission that’s promising but not yet ready for publication.
How are you paid? Meaning are you paid a salary or are you paid by project or in books or bonuses or both?
(I asked the above question because I do firmly believe that investing in people, i.e., paying them a decent wage and seeing that they’re trained is the biggest favor a company can do itself.)
Judi: Paid in different ways: piecework plus bonus, or royalty.
Sasha: I’m paid per project.
Nikki: I’m paid a royalty on net sales.
Deb: The freelance content editors for Carina Press are paid a flat fee per job. Once we turn in a final edited ms to production, we invoice Harlequin a set amount depending on word count. We also get paid to read and report on batches of submissions, write revise-and-resubmit letters and judge contests.
How much autonomy do you have in your job? For example, are your decisions on acquisitions determined by an editorial board or the marketing department? Are your editorial decisions second-guessed by — as at one publishing house — copyeditors?
Judi: In one house, recommendations must be confirmed by an editorial board that sometimes reverses editors’ recommendations. In another house, I make the case for acceptance, and I’m part of the editorial board making the final decision.
Sasha: I choose what books I’m going to contract based on what I like, what’s well-written, what I believe in, what I think will sell, etc. Various factors play into my decision as to what to contract, more than I could possibly list here. But the decision as to what I edit is mine alone.
Nikki: I am fairly autonomous, but I do a lot of negotiating.
Negotiating is probably the most difficult thing an editor does. It starts with acquisition. I have known editors who have literally gone down on their knees and begged for permission to give an author a contract. While I’ve never had to bust out the knee pads, I have actually wept in order to get that same permission. And after the contract is signed, there is more negotiation. An editor makes sure that the publisher’s needs are met, especially in terms of deadlines because there are huge monetary penalties involved (at least if you’re talking about printed books with national distribution) in delivering product late or, god forbid, actually canceling a book. Simultaneously, the editor is assisting the author through the sometimes painful process of transforming a private creative work into a commercial product, which can require a lot of conversation, depending on the experience level of and artistic investment of the author.
The third and final point of negotiation is between the author and the perceived reader, who is embodied by editor herself. The editor looks at the piece from the POV of the reader and gives feedback: I found this section slow. I am confused by the timeline here. I don’t understand the need to include so many goats, can you tell my why you find them necessary?
The editor asks the author to show the reader a little mercy and makes suggestions: could you please explain what happened in between the visit to the outhouse and the debutante ball? It would be easier for me to keep track of this timeline if it were in chronological order, then I could spend my time enjoying the immediate scenes instead of doing a lot of mental math. Please don’t hold out on me regarding the main character’s feelings about fruitcake, seeing as how his mother choked to death on a piece of it when he was 12. Can the main character be allowed to be the real hero in this scene, instead of a bystander?
Deb: Carina Press’s editors review all submissions but don’t make the final acquisition decisions. When we fall in love with a ms, we write up a detailed reader’s report describing the project, the author’s credentials, and our assessment of the title’s strengths, marketability and editorial needs. A member (or members) of the Carina Press acquisition team, which is comprised of Harlequin digital employees, will do a second read. Only when a submission gets two editorial recommendations will the team consider acquisition.
We get feedback on the project from the team, which we take into account when we do developmental edits. Other than that, and guidance from our Executive Editor, no one second-guesses our editorial decisions. Our projects are copyedited but no changes are made to the text that aren’t reviewed by the editor and author.
Does your publishing house have a House Style guide? Is it written on a stone tablet?
Judi: Yes. In one instance, it’s rigid. In the other, it’s thorough, but it’s not rigid.
Sasha: Samhain has a House Style guide, but there is flexibility to it. Some rules are more strict than others, but I work with individual authors to maintain their writing style while following Samhain’s style guide as well.
Nikki: Not really. I like fewer commas. We use CMOS, but just as a guideline, not as if it were handed down by Moses. Style sheets and standard rules of grammar are only useful if they work in the service of the story and the prose as a whole. So if an author wants to use sentence fragments, capitalize unusual stuff or start sentences with numerals, and it works, there is no reason to demand a change in order to conform to the style sheet and the rules of grammar. I mean, passive voice is a huge problem for new authors but it’s perfectly correct grammar-wise.
(Passive voice is the use of the word “was” when a stronger verb could be used such as: “He was reading his book aloud.” Vs. “He read his book aloud.” Or “He stood, reading his book aloud.”)
I would never allow a copyeditor’s authority to exceed an author’s. The copyeditor’s name does not appear on the cover of the book. Ultimately, readers will not hold the content editor, copyeditor, cover artist, typesetter, or even publisher responsible for a piece of fiction. The success or failure of the book will be, in the minds of most readers, solely attributed to the author. I think it’s important to never forget that.
Language is a fluid, living thing that is highly variable between classes, regions, ethnicities—even nations who share a common tongue. Ignoring the fact that demanding conformity of language between all these disparate groups, and the authors from which they arise, could be seen as a form of linguistic imperialism, the fact remains that fighting an author over the elements of style that create their own unique voice is just not going to solve the problem of a failing MS.
At worst, losing 100 tiny battles can cause an author to lose their sense of ownership of a piece. Once that is gone, an author’s interest in promoting said piece can be forever lost. In the worst case scenario, being forced to give up too much of their voice to a stylesheet in exchange for publication can damage an author’s ability to write—sometimes for years. It’s just not worth it to me to crush a person’s confidence over disagreements about how to hyphenate a made-up word or the author’s use of dialogue tags.
I think that sometimes people doing editorial reads will sense a structural problem in the story and not really knowing what the exact problem is or how to fix it, they will focus on correcting the much more straightforward problem of making the prose style conform to a style sheet. However, when you get down to brass tacks, if the story itself isn’t functioning, no amount of grammar correction is going to make it work. Removing or changing superficial stuff (like culling extraneous “thats”) cannot and will not solve deeper, deal-breaking problems, like uneven pacing or lack of character development. As an editor, I’d rather save my mental energy for addressing flaws that will make a reader stop caring about the story. That’s the most important thing for me.
Deb: Yes, we have a house style guide. While we generally adhere to it for consistency, exceptions can be made to suit a certain story or author’s style. Some technical things may be non-negotiable, for instance things that affect ebook formatting.
What are some of the misconceptions the rest of the book world holds about your job?
Judi: Some good writers — who could be very good if they let go of their fears — are afraid of story editors. Some writers and some publishers believe that the editor’s role as the author’s advocate is mutually exclusive with the editor’s role as the publisher’s representative; I see them as mutually productive.
Sasha: That editors skim over a book once, change a couple commas, fix typos, and then they’re done. Or on the opposite side of the spectrum, that they rewrite an author’s book to fix their vision of the story. While I’m not naive and know that both of these things can and do happen, that’s not how I edit, or how any of the editors I know and admire edit. I work 12-16 hours a day. I love the written word. I love helping put out the best stories possible. I get as excited as my authors when readers love a book I’ve worked on. I do this job because I want to give readers escapism. I want people to get lost in the stories I work on, to be able to escape the daily grind for just a little while. Editing is my career, yes, and I take it very seriously, but I also love it and can’t imagine doing anything else.
Nikki: That editors enjoy making authors cry. For the record, we don’t enjoy it, we just know that it’s sometimes necessary.
Also, there’s this truly weird notion that editors can tell authors what to write. Oh, would that that were the case! Would that I had the power to order up a story like it was a gourmet cheeseburger. “I’d like a cyborg with a side of military intrigue and benevolent aliens please. Hold the Gay For You.”
Even if by some weird miracle I found an author who would agree to made-to-order stories, authors can only write what they can write. Even if I were to teach an author how to write a story I picked out and send them a point-by-point outline, they would still only be able to produce scenes and characters within their range. You can’t ask a baritone to sing soprano. It just won’t sound good, even if he tries his hardest. All an editor can do is try to help an author reach beyond their comfort range—to try a new, or more complex form, to take their story one step further…and maybe to help sort out that whole timeline problem.
Deb: Some people think it’s an easy job, basically just fixing punctuation, but there’s a lot more involved than that. It’s also not an 8-5 job. Nor is it glamorous or well-paid. Another downside to editing is rejection, which might surprise some people. I find it hard to reject a ms from one of my authors, or a ms I loved but the acquisition team didn’t. And we lose projects too—an author might get multiple offers and go with another house.
Once upon a time editors and writers used to form partnerships and editors worked to develop talent within their publishing houses. Given the current publishing climate is that a realistic or practical expectation now days?
Judi: Of course it’s possible. Loose Id is doing that right now with its authors development program, overseen by Christy Lockhart. Both houses with which I work offer constructive comment to authors submitting to them for the first time, even when the publisher declines to contract the manuscript. Many editors work informally with promising new authors to help ready manuscripts for their first acceptance.
For my part, I try to be available to established authors who work best with editors who are involved in the development of stories from the first idea to the final release.
I really do believe that the editor should be invisible to the reader and in the manuscript, but the author–editor collaboration should be a partnership.
Sasha: This is something I absolutely believe in, although it doesn’t work with everyone. As with all relationships, it depends on how well both parties mesh and how well they trust each other and if they have the same goals. I have a handful of authors who I work with very closely and who I’ve striven to develop. We trust each other to put out the best book every single time. So yes, I do think this can work well, but not with everyone.
Nikki: Probably not for big houses, but I’ve found that it works for me.
I can see that it would be very difficult to commit to working for weeks and weeks developing an author knowing that there’s a high chance that the author will simply take themselves to a larger/ more prestigious/ more lucrative house once they’ve learned all they can from you. That’s a lot of time wasted for the editor. It’s kind of like dating somebody who you know is only dating you to meet your hotter friend. You’re not going to put your whole heart into making that relationship work out long term.
In partnerships like these, the relationship between the author and editor blurs the line between business and friendship. As far as I can tell, it can only be maintained between individuals who are not highly emotionally volatile, who also have the capacity to trust one another. Because each partner has to advocate for themselves and their own goals and needs while understanding that the other partner has equally valid goals and needs. Sometimes these needs will come into conflict and compromise will be necessary. Sometimes one or the other of you will have to apologize or to forgive. In short, emotional maturity is critical.
As important is a clear definition of what the goal of the partnership is. And this goal must be mutually advantageous to both parties with a high degree of reciprocity. What I mean is, that if you’re dating me to meet my hotter friend, you’d better take me out to some really great restaurants during the ephemeral time that we are together. And maybe introduce me to YOUR hotter friend before dumping me. Quid pro quo, baby. It makes the business world go round.
Deb: Despite the challenges of the current publishing climate, I consider developing talent to be part of my job, and an aspect of it that I really focus on and take pride in. I write a lot of revise-and-resubmit letters, and on one or two occasions I’ve even done two for the same book.
I’ve acquired projects that need extra work in the hopes that the author will learn through the editing process and produce future mss that are more polished and/or better structured. It doesn’t always work, but the extra time investment pays off often enough.
I do consider myself an author’s partner even if he or she writes for multiple houses. And many authors seem to enjoy having a close relationship with their editor, someone they can talk to about their career. And while this may sound self-congratulatory, I was pleased when quite a few of my authors followed me when I came to Carina. It also means a lot to me when I get direct submissions via a referral from one of my authors.
We often read editors commenting on problems with the submissions they receive. What problems do you see in published manuscripts you’ve read within our genre? Any thoughts (avoiding names and specific publishing houses) on what might be happening from an editorial standpoint with some of the less competent work out there?
Judi: A sameness. Willingness to accept cliché. An apparent lack of research and authenticity.
Sasha: There are some books being published that, simply put, should never have been published. It’s a cold, hard truth, but not everything ever written and submitted should be put out for public consumption. And not everyone who claims to be an editor can actually edit or even knows what a good editor can and should do.
I can’t speak as to how other publishing companies run their business, but from what I’ve seen and read and heard from other readers, some publishing houses aren’t quite as stringent with their quality. While I agree that a story that doesn’t work for me may work quite well for someone else (and I’m not suggesting that every story I’ve rejected should never be published), that doesn’t excuse publishing any story just because it fits a niche audience. Just because a book has a good idea, does not mean it’s well-executed. Just because someone can spin a story, doesn’t mean they have the necessary writing skills to execute it properly. Just because an author is writing in a genre that readers glom to, does not mean that every story written in that genre should be published.
I also believe that some publishing houses may not have a quality editorial department. Whether it’s due to lack of training, or lack of autonomy, I don’t know. Some publishing houses don’t pay their editors. If you don’t pay, how can you expect to draw quality editing? And without quality editing, the quality of the releases will be sketchy.
Nikki: Poor logic.
Poor cause and effect relationships resulting from poor, or missing logic.
Lackluster endings resulting from poor cause and effect relationships.
Minimal takeaway from novel resulting from lackluster ending.
Basic forgetability, resulting from minimal takeaway.
Also:
No real antagonist.
No dramatic tension resulting from a lack of meaningful opposition to the main character’s goals.
No feeling of progress or escalation because the character’s main goals are under-defined due to a lack of meaningful opposition.
Lackluster or baffling ending resulting from under-defined character goals.
Minimal takeaway.
Third:
Profound passivity in the main character, resulting in very contrived plots.
And last:
Fundamental sameness to too many other books already existing in the field that results in titles being somewhat interchangeable.
Deb: GLBT fiction has been a hot subgenre these past few years, and some books have been published that I don’t feel should have been, probably to capitalize on that trend. I read some books a few years ago that were little more than man-porn—sloppily written, with almost nonexistent character development, and thin plots stringing together a series of sex scenes. It really surprised me because most of the other GLBT books that particular house was releasing were really good.
I’ve also read some good stories recently that could have been great. I’ll give you one example. I received a submission for a m/m steampunk ms with terrific characters and world-building but no conflict between the heroes. The love affair between these two interesting characters unfolds against this nifty backdrop, and it’s all very pretty but not compelling or memorable.
I did a revise-and-resubmit letter but the author decided to accept another offer, from an editor who wasn’t asking for changes. The author admitted that although some changes might strengthen the story, he didn’t want to take the time because he was busy writing his next book.
Very soon after that conversation the book was for sale…and I lamented a missed opportunity to give the readers something greater.
Any other comments or thoughts on editing in this genre from an editors viewpoint?
Judi: Houses that do little more than a spell check on manuscripts do their authors and readers a real disservice. I’ll repeat: The editor should be invisible to the reader and in the manuscript, but the author–editor collaboration should be a partnership.
Nikki: Ha! What? Six pages of rambling answers isn’t enough? Oh, wait—I do have one more thing to add. I don’t know if you’re going to use that “make me a better storyteller” line from the intro on this sheet, but I’d just like to mention that writing prose and storytelling are two different skill sets. If she wants to be a better storyteller she should watch Iron Giant and then listen to it with Brad Bird’s director’s commentary on. There are huge storytelling lessons in that.
Alternately, she could enroll in an oral storytelling class. That’ll teach her more about dramatic storytelling than any number of books ever could.
Oh, and because of your questionnaire I was thinking about editing in general and I think it might be 50% Black Ops assassin and 50% Mom. If either profession is successful, nobody knows they were exactly there. It’s only when they fail to cover their tracks, or just fail, that they become visible.
Deb: I enjoy GLBT stories and am actively seeking more. And I’m interested in all GLBT fiction, not just romances, and they don’t need to contain explicit content. But I want to work with authors who are willing to invest the time it takes to polish a story until it’s the best it can be. After all, isn’t that what loyal GLBT readers deserve?
I hope the above interview will serve as the opening gambit to greater discussion on the topic. We all complain about the “lack of editing” within our industry, but what does that really mean? It should be clear from the above that for Judi, Sasha, Nikki, and Deb, editing is a vocation and not just a job, that they take great pride in their work, that they’ve cared enough to fill in the gaps of their professional training. I suspect that they are overworked and undercompensated, though they certainly haven’t said so. I know they’re underappreciated, because when they successfully do their job it is, by its very nature, invisible.
My question is: are they typical of editors within our industry?
The other question is what do the writers amongst us expect from an editor, and is that expectation communicated when you’re choosing a publisher? Is the editorial philosophy of a publishing house something you even stop to consider when you’re submitting a project? If not, it should be. When the time comes to pick a publishing partner, there is no single more important consideration than the editor you’ll be working with.
Josh Lanyon’s Contact Information
email: josh.lanyon@sbcglobal.net
website: http://www.joshlanyon.com/
This was useful to me as a newbie. Thanks very much.
I’ve used three separate publishers and at one point last year, was juggling three separate styles of editing. It isn’t something I’d recommend. Also House style – reduces me to banging my head against a brick wall. I just can’t write in one style.
On the whole I’ve been lucky. My editors have been respectful while tightening up my story. Aside from one nightmare last edit just as the story was due to be published which took hours, the publishers have been extremely well organised and the editors really helpful. I am very grateful to one particular editor who pointed out a trait in my writing that I wasn’t aware of.
I am learning to ‘listen’ to my editor. This will only help me grow as an author.
Excellent, Sue. I’ve been very fortunate in my editors. And I would say that whatever skill I have is due to knowing enough to shut up and listen.
I’ve only had three out of 30+ editors that were…meh. And only one lunatic I couldn’t work with on any level. Oddly (or not) in this very genre.
What a fascinating article, Josh. Did I understood correctly that you’ll do another one about copy editing? That will be even more interesting to me since that is kind of parallel to what I do. (I’m a translator and in addition to translating, I also review texts translated by others. In fact, I have a 18K review waiting for me that I’ve been putting off and I really, REALLY should be doing that rather commenting here :-D.)
As I’m very deadline oriented (aka can’t get anything done if I don’t have a firm deadline), I’d be interested to hear what kind of deadlines editors face, how they estimate the time each manuscript needs, how much time on average say a 50K manuscripts needs and finally how often they face the necessity to compromise due to external factors, in other words “this-is-as-good-as-it-is-going-to-get-under-these-circumstances-so-live-with-it”.
Kaija, I do want to address the issue of copyeditors in this genre, and what I feel is a disturbing attempt to homogenize style and even content at various houses.
Unfortunately that post won’t be such a lovefest. Certain houses have excellent copyeditors — JCP, Carina Press, Samhain, etc. Others not so much.
As I’m very deadline oriented (aka can’t get anything done if I don’t have a firm deadline), I’d be interested to hear what kind of deadlines editors face, how they estimate the time each manuscript needs, how much time on average say a 50K manuscripts needs and finally how often they face the necessity to compromise due to external factors, in other words “this-is-as-good-as-it-is-going-to-get-under-these-circumstances-so-live-with-it”.
Hopefully some of the editors interviewed can pop in — I think Deb’s on vacation now.
Kaija,
Since I read manuscripts at the submission stage, I have a good idea how much editing will be needed at the time a project is acquired.
Editing typically takes around 3-4 months. I like building extra time into schedules, to allow for the unexpected. So while we allow at least two weeks for an author to return developmental edits, I try to give my authors a month if I’m asking for extensive changes. I spend a few days on line edits for full length novels and usually give the authors two weeks to review and return that stage. At the copyedit stage, authors have 3-5 days.
And we don’t compromise on quality. If a Carina Press editor is not satisfied with edits, we have the option of postponing release until the book is ready. I’m currently editing a m/m SF, and I asked the authors to revise the ending twice before I was satisfied, and I was prepared to push the release date back if necessary. It was a lot of extra work for all of us, but we’re all thrilled with the result, and I hope readers will be too.
Hey, aren’t you supposed to be on vacation? ;-D Thanks for popping in, Deb.
Thanks for answering, Deb. I should have mentioned that I’m not a literary translator, so I’m not sure how the process goes for them, but for us who translate user guides, helps, web sites and other functional texts, the quality vs time is a constant battle that leads to not very happy compromises :-(. So I’m glad to hear that you can take the time you need.
I worked with one publisher that didn’t set deadlines or release dates in advance. They waited until the full editing process was complete so no one would feel rushed to meet a deadline. Some books go faster than expected and others more slowly, but they wanted to avoid that panicked just get it out the door however it looks trap that some other publishers probably do, resulting in sub-optimal books published.
I think that works if you are very large or very small. If you’re very large (Samhain, CP, or any mainstream press) you’ve got other completed projects you can push ahead to fill in the gaps. And if you’re very small, there’s more financial pressure, but critical pressure is probably the big concern and it’s worth it to wait and put out the best possible work.
I do think for some presses it’s a rape and pillage mentality. Strike now while the iron’s hot because tomorrow it might be something we don’t sell. And then there are the presses that depend on each new release for any cash flow which means there is no money for releases if something isn’t bringing in that first burst of new release $$$. That’s literally hand-to-mouth economics and longterm prognosis is not good.
Thanks EM. I’ve certainly read some books with good story and characters I like but which feel like they are about 75% done. It’s really irritating because you feel like book could have been great if that last 25% had been taken care of as well.
Excellent post, Josh, with lots of food for thought. I believe many of the smaller houses pay their editors through a percentage of the royalties, and unless they have a bunch of high-selling authors, that’s a lot of effort to go to for what amounts to a pretty small return. Little wonder, then, that many editors do the job of a copy-editor rather than a content editor. Unless they really, really love a project or really, really love working with words, there’s not a great deal of financial incentive. Perhaps if every small publisher could offer a base rate or per project fee, we’d see more (and more rigorous) content editing as well as copy-editing. However, I know that’s unrealistic for most small presses. The publishers you work with are all quality places and I doubt many readers complain about the standard of their editing. It’s the even smaller/newer presses that need to put the work in somehow! Wish I could wave a magic wand and guarantee decent pay for all editors!
Leslie, you’ve hit on something right there — and this is probably what separates content editors from copyeditors. I bring this up because I know many copyeditors who aspire to be content editors — and it does sometimes happen that way.
But in general — not always — the copyeditor does not have that love for the rhythm and music of language. Or if they do, alas, they’re those unfortunates born tone deaf.
The mindset of the copyeditor is a blinkered one, a rigid and literal one. It has to be to some extent. But it’s a can’t-see-the-forest-for-the-trees perspective. Almost the opposite of the content editor’s world view of the work.
It’s easier to find and train good copyeditors. It’s NOT so easy to find good content editors, and often their value is underestimated because so much of what they do can’t be weighed in page count and deleted words.
You brought up a great point: there is no automatic career progression here and there shouldn’t be unless the person really can do the content editor’s job.
I know Cecilia Tan of Circlet Press has a program for apprentice editors who can learn how to do the job and she’s helping improve publishing by working closely with this small group of lucky people who get actual in-person, hands-on experience and mentoring. But someone has to take the time and teach people what works and why, what doesn’t work and why and how to spot where some suggestions can make the difference.
I know Cecilia Tan of Circlet Press has a program for apprentice editors who can learn how to do the job and she’s helping improve publishing by working closely with this small group of lucky people who get actual in-person, hands-on experience and mentoring. But someone has to take the time and teach people what works and why, what doesn’t work and why and how to spot where some suggestions can make the difference.
Yes. This is what needs to happen. Absolutely. A more aggressive and on-hands approach to training by people *who know what they’re doing.* By real editors. Training from other amateurs is not the solution.
If a publisher pays on royatlies, it’s worth it for the editor to put the energy into making an okay book into a great book, since the sales will be higher. At first it might not seem like a good value for time spent, but the editor, author and publisher will all benefit.
Lately, reviews on Goodreads and on sites like Waves cause as many people to NOT buy certain books as to buy the good ones. So it’s pennywise and pound-foolish to not do the best job possible.
Readers are demanding more and letting plenty of other readers know when they aren’t happy with a story. As the market gets saturated, it will be the only way to distinguish which books are worth the money.
EM–If a publisher pays on royatlies, it’s worth it for the editor to put the energy into making an okay book into a great book, since the sales will be higher.
NK–Sadly, not necessarily. There is another strategy–sheer massive volume. In other words, put out 30 mediocre stories that sell 100 copies each. Rather than one that sells 3000 (or whatever). That’s a viable strategy for digital, because the production cost is so low.
It’s not my personal strategy, but it’s definitely a viable approach if what you’re trying to do is make money with minimal work.
Josh, thanks for taking the time to explore this so thoroughly. I’m not a writer, but I treasure books that are really written.
Glad you enjoyed the article, GR!
Fascinating stuff, and very timely as I’ve almost finished the final draft of my novel and am seriously thinking about who to send it to. It’s good to know that there are plenty of editors in our genre who put in that level of time and committment to helping authors develop and produce a better finished manuscript.
Those working days make me want to fall to my knees and say “I’m not worthy!” – good content editors truly earn their pay and deserve a great deal of respect. I hope I can find someone who will work this hard for me 😀
Speaking of which! ;-D
I can tell you that editorial policy has shaped many of my publishing decisions. In fact, probably the primary determining factor of who gets what project and what houses I continue to use is based almost entirely on the different editors and editorial policy.
Excellent post as usual Josh. Very informative. I look forward to more of your posts on this topic. And naturally I have a question that has nothing to do with editing.
OKers (as they’re known at the New Yorker)
Just wondering if you knew how the term OK came about. Growing up where I did, we are taught this early on – that and the works of Washington Irving.
Just wondering if you knew how the term OK came about. Growing up where I did, we are taught this early on – that and the works of Washington Irving.
The fundamentals, in fact. ;-D
No, I don’t know the story behind OK. What is it?
Well the history of OK:
On 23 March 1839, OK was introduced to the world on the second page of the Boston Morning Post, in the midst of a long paragraph, as “o.k. (all correct)”.
A President – who was also the first president born in the US – coined the term. That President was Martin Van Buren who was born and lived in Old Kinderhook and put OK on all his documents instead of his actual initials. He was also a close friend of… Washington Irving. Van Buren’s unsuccessful reelection campaign in 1840 is regarded by etymologists as instrumental in the popularization of the word “OK”. In the context of the campaign, it was used as a nickname for Van Buren and stood for “Old Kinderhook,” which was a reference to Van Buren’s birthplace.
Now that really was fascinating. I don’t think I ever heard that story before.
We heard it a lot. The town takes Martin Van Buren very seriously. Statue in the town square… historical marker for his birth place… tours of Lindenwald where he lived… field trips to his grave on his birthday. That actually is where his commemorative presidential coin was first released. Then we had Washington Irving… Our school was called Ichabod Crane and our sport teams were The Riders – headless of course.
Writers need good editors like fish need water. If you are afraid of an editor, stop writing with the intent to sell. Stop. Now.
I’ve worked with Deb on nearly all my books and I have to say, I am NEVER leaving her. EVER. If I have to kidnap her and keep her in my basement… well, enough said. She takes my WOW GOOD STORY and makes it OMG BETTER every single freaking time. She sees what I can’t, being too close.
I don’t take every suggestion she has but it makes me think WHY is she suggesting this change? She’s taught me more about what I want to put out there than anyone, ever, hands down.
I did get multiple offers on a manuscript and the decision was absolutely miserable. My deciding factor? I could not imagine my baby, the story of my heart, in anyone’s hands but Deb’s.
I knew she would do right by it, for THE STORY- not for my ego, for the money or for title under her belt. She wants THE BEST VERSION of any story period. Works for me. Why would any writer want something different?
I did get multiple offers on a manuscript and the decision was absolutely miserable. My deciding factor? I could not imagine my baby, the story of my heart, in anyone’s hands but Deb’s.
Carina has very good editors–and clear lines of demarcation, which helps.
I worked with Angela on Fair Game — and the only reason I didn’t interview her for this was she’s always so insanely busy, and editing is no longer her primary responsibility — but her thoughts as someone training editorial staff would have been interesting. Maybe next time!
Right from the start, from her first introduction to me, I knew Deb was the real thing.
Excellent post. Very eye opening for a newbie like myself. Thanks for this.
Thanks, Chris. I do hope these columns continue to be informative and useful.
“Oh, and because of your questionnaire I was thinking about editing in general and I think it might be 50% Black Ops assassin and 50% Mom. If either profession is successful, nobody knows they were exactly there. It’s only when they fail to cover their tracks, or just fail, that they become visible.” – I loved this comment! I think it pretty much sums it up in a nutshell.
As a new writer I pray that my recently submitted work will find an editor like these. I don’t need my ego stroked – I know that I like my story as it is. But I need someone who points out to me what I can’t see, since it’s my baby and I love it, pretty much like my own mom can tell me why the other kids won’t play with my baby when I can’d find any fault with him. And I need this someone who sees my baby’s flaws tough enough to make me attempt at bettering them.
Since I’m a reader, too, I have twiche the reason to thank God for editors like these. This is what we all want: as writers, to put out the best story we possibly can. And as readers, we deserve the best story we can possibly get for out hard – earned cash.
Since I’m a reader, too, I have twiche the reason to thank God for editors like these. This is what we all want: as writers, to put out the best story we possibly can. And as readers, we deserve the best story we can possibly get for out hard – earned cash.
That was the catalyst for this column, as a matter of fact. Wave’s reviewers mounting frustrations and complaints with the quality of the books they were receiving. And I think our panel of editors pretty well, if diplomatically, address that. Too many books are being churned out to meet a demand without the proper time and care taken.
It’s bad everywhere, but it’s worse here in this little specialty genre — and add to that how many authors are opting to go it alone, completely alone…
On the other hand, one reason some authors make that choice — Jordan for example — is the creative vandalizing they’ve received in the name of “editing.”
It’s a tough call on the part of a publishing house because too little editing results in crap books. But too much editing also results in crap books — and authors who decide to go their own way (and now have the tools to do it effectively).
My day job is (scientific) editing, where adherence to house style is mandatory for clarity’s sake. That perspective helps me empathize with other editors, but fiction editing is a different world from technical editing. I understand the need for style guides, but they’re just that: guides. Breaking the rules is not only allowable but necessary at times.
When I get back an edited galley, I tend to accept about 95% of the changes because they’re either corrections, formatting fixes, or minor alterations. That leaves about 5% where I’ll fight for my wording or rewrite to avoid using the suggested change (if that will improve the story). I often write sentences for meter and flow more than for style, which means I often have to defend them against overzealous editors.
One thing I always keep in mind is that editors (professional or not) are also readers. Setting aside the basics of grammar and punctuation, I think of editors’ comments as reader feedback. If they have a problem with something, chances are that readers will, too.
One thing I always keep in mind is that editors (professional or not) are also readers. Setting aside the basics of grammar and punctuation, I think of editors’ comments as reader feedback. If they have a problem with something, chances are that readers will, too.
Actually, I want to address this because a great deal of copyediting is done out of context — which is why copyeditors don’t tend to catch jokes — and miss subtle interplay. Copyediting is neither a subtle nor elegant business.
I sound scathing on the topic of copyeditors, and I don’t mean to because copyeditors are necessary and enormously valuable in the publishing process. They are the grunt work folks. The unsung heroes. It’s not the copyeditors who ever got the three cocktail lunches or the thank you notes from authors or the interviews in the New Yorker.
I do agree that 95 – 98% of the battles over edits can be safely ceded. There are a few things worth fighting for, and those things have to do with style and voice and authorial intent. The more you write, the less it’s worth your time to battle over hyphens or dialog tags — I mean, it’s one of 50 books and chances are in month or so you won’t even remember what the damn book was about.
When it comes to content editors, I do trust them implicitly. I do consider them my first read, and if they don’t get a joke or a reference or can’t follow the dialog…then I see that as something that I need to at least consider.
This is also why it’s so crucial that a content editor give praise with the criticism. An author is very vulnerable on that initial read.
I just caught your last comment. One editor sent back an edit starting with a long paragraph of criticisms. It was hard to even start the edit. Actually once I’d started it was fine. Another editor started with praise. It made all the difference.
God, yes. It makes all the difference in the world to know that the editor is starting from the mindset of liking the work. It puts you on the same team, as it were.
Reminds me! A shrewd thing both Carina and Samhain do is send the author a little one line positive comment from the copyeditor saying something nice about the manuscript. Mainstream publishers do this too. I’ve never known whether the comments are genuine or just caluclatedly tactful, but it makes such a difference in how the author ends the process. It’s the difference between winding up the relationship with flowers versus a proctology exam.
I had one editor add a little snarky comment on most of his edits and it completely turned me off from the experience. Unfortunately, he was the best editor I worked with, but his style was so abrasive it was hard to appreciate his suggestions and feel encouraged to trust him or make changes.
I showed them to another writer who was shocked and actually complained to the publisher for me. The editor apologized and made some excuse about deadlines. I’d turned in the story at least two months earlier, so I wasn’t sure why the looming deadline was my fault.
So yes, a good “bedside manner” can make a huge difference.
Absolutely. It’s a funny thing but part of being a successful editor — like being a successful teacher — is personality. It’s not just about knowing more, it’s about how you communicate that knowledge.
You could be the shrewdest judge of writing in the world, but if you’re an obnxious bitch who can’t control your own insecurities and frustrations…um…you’re not going to have a successful career as an editor.
And at the same time, writers do have to learn to listen with an open mind and even cut editors slack when deadlines are tight and stuff is happening.
Humans with all their insecurities and hangups and hurt feelings are the X factor in the publishing game. Because all business and corporate entities are ultimately run by…people.
Copyediting and proofreading are definitely different animals from content editing, and as I said, I did mean things other than the grammar/punctuation that copyeditors and proofreaders should be addressing. A lot of editing is some combination of all of that, though. I have beta readers read my stories before submission, and they read for everything from plot holes to typoes (as I do when I beta read). If they have a problem with something, I take a closer look at it, and more often than not, it does need to be fixed or clarified in some way. 🙂
Yes. Sasha Knight is one of those content editors who is actually a terrific copyeditor too. She’s like a laser-eyed machine, and yet she’s a real content editor with a content editor’s sensibility.
You can really tell the best copyeditors because they do pay attention to continuity and logic and all those little but vital things.
And you’re right. There is, ideally, some crossover on both sides. But when it comes to copyeditors and literary license or style or authorial voice. Don’t get me started.
Oh, and I meant to say YES YES YES on editors giving praise with criticism. I sent back a beta read recently that had a lot of note, but most were small, repeated grammar/punctuation problems, rather than substantive comments. In my email, I made sure to tell the author not to panic when she saw all the red!
It’s one of those things that is easy to lose track of, especially when you’re rushing to deadline — or you’ve been working with someone a long time.
Judi and I practically work in code at this point. But I always need, look for, that thumbs up from her. I want to know she likes the project. It may sound silly, but it’s important to me.
Josh
Sasha said:
That’s a great objective but it’s really hard to get lost in some of the stories I’ve read recently. There are so many things wrong with them it would take an entire day to document some of the worst offenders, but I did a recent post about writers’ lost imaginations and that partly explains some of my increasing frustrations with this subgenre.
Readers are not hard or impossible to please. We love to read but we want a product that reflects the professionalism of the publisher, the imagination of the writer, and the care of a good editor, elements which together will ensure that we get the best book possible from that particular author. Of course errors in prose and syntax, poor spelling, continuity etc. must be corrected, but they pale in comparison to when the flow of the story and the characterizations (most especially the characterizations) demonstrate that very little care OR editing went into the final product.
When we buy a bottle of wine from a vintner we expect that it will meet certain taste expectations, and we’re disappointed if the wine turns out to be flat rather than robust. It’s the same for a book. Readers have certain expectations and when we’re disappointed by several substandard stories in a row it’s hard to trust that publisher’s or author’s next production.
Although a lot of problems in M/M can be laid at the doors of newbie publishers or authors, many books I have read which should never have published are from established publishers. I’m not sure if it’s the rush to get the product to market as fast as possible because of competition, or if it’s a lack of good editors, or both, that’s driving this miserable bus.
Sasha, Deb, Nikki and Judi are all a credit to their profession, but what about the houses that don’t have staff of their calibre, and skimp on this basic but very essential service? The result? Substandard books and unhappy readers. How long should we wait while ‘editors’ who haven’t a clue about their job descriptions learn on the job?
When reviewers are less than complimentary about a book many authors take offense, and rather than find the real culprits – themselves, or the publisher and editors who ‘helped’ them publish a less than memorable book – they take out their rage by slamming the reviewers. We don’t want to dump on books but we owe it to the readers to give them our opinion, the same way we would rate a bottle of wine, a movie or a meal; these are all creative efforts. I know it’s hard in this market but authors should choose publishing houses with solid reputations to give their books a chance at getting at least a good (never mind an excellent) editor. If authors choose a recently established publisher, chances are that the final product will reflect the fact that that publisher doesn’t have enough money to invest in quality editorial resources. Many books we read from new publishers don’t seem to be touched by an editor – copy OR content. Of course there are always exceptions, but not often.
M/M, because of its popularity, is getting a lot of the worst talent in the business because so many people want to make a quick buck (and I include authors as well as publishers). Of course there are always exceptions but they are hard to come by. Many new authors could be great if only they had the right help but unfortunately in the rush to publish, some publishers don’t spend the time developing their editorial staff by investing in training so that they, in turn, can provide authors with the critical help they need.
As reviewers, we will continue to provide honest reviews for the readers, always acknowledging that these reviews are only one person’s opinion. I’m just hoping to find that diamond when I least expect it. 😯
I feel like it’s not even new authors, I’ve read several books by established authors with other works I’ve enjoyed that were rushed and either skipped editing or were given nothing more than a spell-check.
The rush to put out new material has come at the cost of quality and I’ve found that now I have to wait for multiple reviews for almost every book I purchase. I’ve stopped more books because of editing (content and/or copy) in the past six months than in all of the rest of my life combined.
It’s really going to depend on the publishing house. I don’t think, for example, I get special treatment at any of these houses. Every author has a content editor and gets copyedited.
So usually the quality (or lack) will be reflected up and down the line.
Is every editor as experienced? No. There is clearly going to be on the job training. Not every author is a born editor. Heck, not every author is even a born author. ;-D
That’s a great objective but it’s really hard to get lost in some of the stories I’ve read recently. There are so many things wrong with them it would take an entire day to document some of the worst offenders, but I did a recent post about writers’ lost imaginations and that partly explains some of my increasing frustrations with this subgenre.
I think Judi touched on that — well, frankly, all the editors did in the most diplomatic way possible. Basically, you’ve got a hot genre and an audience with a huge appetite. It’s the flavor of the month mentality. Strike now — publish now — because next month the flavor may be straight regency romance again.
This stuff goes in cycles.
But the m/m market is not going away. Will the boom die down? Of course. Complaints about quality are the prelude to that.
You — readers and reviewers — are starting to reach saturation point. You’re starting to get choosy. There’s so much out there, you can afford to be choosey. (Choosy? Where’s a CE when I need one?)
But…we do need to hear from readers on this. Someone pointed out, and it’s perfectly true, I interviewed editors from the houses with the strongest reps. Their mindset is perhaps going to be different.
Readers are not hard or impossible to please. We love to read but we want a product that reflects the professionalism of the publisher, the imagination of the writer, and the care of a good editor, elements which together will ensure that we get the best book possible from that particular author. Of course errors in prose and syntax, poor spelling, continuity etc. must be corrected, but they pale in comparison to when the flow of the story and the characterizations (most especially the characterizations) demonstrate that very little care OR editing went into the final product.
Fair enough. It’s difficult to be bluntly honest in such a small genre. I will say I buy a lot of books from a particular press. They have a lot of good authors and great story ideas, but the editing is simply not there. Not the copyediting and not the content editing. And as good as the stories are despite that –and some of them are good — they aren’t anywhere near what they would be with a Judi or a Sasha or a Nikki or a Deb to aid the work.
And the downside of this is these authors aren’t going anywhere beyond this publishing house until their game is up to scratch.
When we buy a bottle of wine from a vintner we expect that it will meet certain taste expectations, and we’re disappointed if the wine turns out to be flat rather than robust. It’s the same for a book. Readers have certain expectations and when we’re disappointed by several substandard stories in a row it’s hard to trust that publisher’s or author’s next production.
Yes. This is true. Because this genre is a romantic and erotic one, you do have readers who will overlook some of the weaknesses because they want the kink, and can’t get it elsewhere (to be bluntly honest). So some authors/publishers stay alive and in business thanks to that. But…it’s a limited shelf life. It may not seem like it right now, but it is.
As a reader, I think I am fairly easy to please. I’m always on the lookout for the next hidden gem, but I’ve got realistic expectations in the m/m genre. I’m reading in the field because there’s something here that I can’t get elsewhere, so I’m limited by choices and I willingly sacrifice a lot of DNWs to get my fix *g*.
My only requirement in this particular genre ATM is properly copyedited books (I am not even talking about content edits). I know some readers can ignore the superficial errors that copyeditors work hard to eliminate, but I’m definitely not one of them – I get yanked out of the story too quickly. These days, I only buy books from trusted writers and publishers, and also books that come highly recced.
I mentioned this before – I bought eight books of a series in bulk (lapse of judgment on my part and a mistake I won’t make again), all of them very badly edited if edited at all. As a completist, I’ll continue with the series, but that’s it with the publisher and the author.
I’m guessing most readers don’t read exclusively in any single genre, and speaking for myself, I’m no different. My reading time is precious, so I read selectively in all fields. Of course, if the editing process ever makes its revolution in the m/m genre, I’ll be back to celebrate and devour everything from this field again.
In the meantime, I’ll just enjoy my joyful discovery of several wonderful, talented, and gorgeous writers and be patient. After all, patience is a requirement in all readers.
Lastly, it’s a fascinating read – the process that editors go through to polish works for publication. It makes sense that some (err if not all) of my favorite works have been honed by all of the editors you interviewed. (and i know one of my imminent favorites is definitely polished by an editor above *cough* I-have-a-wild-crush-on-GinnHale *cough* – speaking of, my issue arrived in the mail :D)
I’ve been eagerly awaiting this post, since some discussion between myself and Wave helped prompt this deeper look at editing. I was frustrated at my own experiences with editors and frustrated that okay books are getting published when a few changes would make them shine like gems. Too many readers and reviewers are pointing out shortcomings that a decent, committed editor should have spotted.
Unfortunately, your experiences and editors are far from the norm, so I’d like to see some interviews with editors from the publishers with those unimaginative books or books which show the flaws Nikki spelled out so clearly.
My experiences with four different publishers range from having 15k cut out of a book by a copy editor (after the publisher gave her an arbitrary word count limit) to having some commas added or subtracted by another person at another house. My storytelling is far from perfect, and I wanted more substance.
I asked one editor why there weren’t more edits and she told me “I only edit the story on the page, not the story it could be.” To me, that’s not editing, that’s little more than proofreading.
I want a tough, thoughtful and experienced person to help me improve my writing and storytelling and I even asked other writers which houses had them. I got only one person who said they were happy with the amount of editorial input/guidance they got.
I’ve edited three anthologies, so I’m no expert, but I commented, suggested ways to improving pacing or tension, pointed out illogical points, etc. Every author I worked with told me no one had ever given them that much guidance or attention and each person told me their story was so much better after we worked on it.
I would love for someone to give me that back. RIght now I get more guidance from beta reads from my author friends than I do from people who are paid to do that job. I’m probably going to make my publishers mad at my comments, but I think I’d be a better writer and my readers would end up with a better book, and be happier.
But I do thank you for showing what editors should be doing, so that newer authors can start calling their editors on it, and start asking for suggestions to improve the book, not just speed it through and get to release day sooner.
There will come a point when even the most voracious reader will stop blindly buying and begin focusing on known quality factors, and the newer authors or the less-conscientious publishers are going to lose out.
Unfortunately, your experiences and editors are far from the norm, so I’d like to see some interviews with editors from the publishers with those unimaginative books or books which show the flaws Nikki spelled out so clearly.
I’m trying to think how I would phrase that request to interview. HI, WE’RE ALL AGREED THAT YOUR EDITORS AREN’T DOING THEIR JOB PROPERLY. WHO CAN I TALK TO FIRST? ;-p
Seriously, I do understand what you’re saying, and now we’re all rushing to look at who you publish with so we can shake our heads and say, yep!
My experiences with four different publishers range from having 15k cut out of a book by a copy editor (after the publisher gave her an arbitrary word count limit)
Jesus!
to having some commas added or subtracted by another person at another house. My storytelling is far from perfect, and I wanted more substance.
This is something that came up in conversation with Deb. She mentioned that I’d never had one of her (I forget the exact number of pages) 14+ editorial letters, and I said at this late date in my publishing career, I’d be floored if I was still getting 14+ pages of edits.
As in any field of endeavor, writers get better at their craft. And part of how they get better is working with good editors. So if 30 years later you still need to be led by the hand through the writing process, it’s probably time to take up painting.
But no one starts out knowing it all. NO one. There is a learning curve and how fast we get through it depends on both the skill of our editors and our own willingness to learn.
I asked one editor why there weren’t more edits and she told me “I only edit the story on the page, not the story it could be.” To me, that’s not editing, that’s little more than proofreading.
Yep. True enough. I think for many houses that is the editorial philosophy — I think that’s what Morrison was talking about when he referred to a publisher’s editor versus an author’s editor.
I want a tough, thoughtful and experienced person to help me improve my writing and storytelling and I even asked other writers which houses had them. I got only one person who said they were happy with the amount of editorial input/guidance they got.
May I ask what house they were writing for?
I’ve edited three anthologies, so I’m no expert, but I commented, suggested ways to improving pacing or tension, pointed out illogical points, etc. Every author I worked with told me no one had ever given them that much guidance or attention and each person told me their story was so much better after we worked on it.
I think that does happen a lot in this genre — a genre with roots in fan fiction and fandom, where there is little editing and a huge reliance on “betaing”
As a side note, one of the all time best editors I ever worked with was the editor of a fanzine who I worked with a year or so ago. No formal training, but she had taught herself to edit and she was simply one of the best. But she had an instinctive knack for story and character, almost an intuition.
I would love for someone to give me that back. RIght now I get more guidance from beta reads from my author friends than I do from people who are paid to do that job. I’m probably going to make my publishers mad at my comments, but I think I’d be a better writer and my readers would end up with a better book, and be happier.
A degree in English does not an editor make. Anymore than reading How to Copy Edit makes for a great copyeditor. There is a shortage of excellent editors in this genre — and in publishing in general. Editors just don’t get the respect they used to get, and they certainly aren’t getting rich, so the motivating factor is passion for the work.
And that’s true for a lot of writers too, but writers get to hear from readers who love the stories. We get all the credit when the story is good. No one reviews a book and says, my God that Josh Lanyon has great editors!
But I do.
But I do thank you for showing what editors should be doing, so that newer authors can start calling their editors on it, and start asking for suggestions to improve the book, not just speed it through and get to release day sooner.
Part of what’s happening in this writing revolution is that more and more writers are opting to go it alone. The decision to publish through someone else will be viewed more and more as what does the publisher bring to the table? What’s the value added going through Hot House Press versus doing it myself? And the opportunity to work with a real editor is going to be one of the major value added things — almost like serving an apprenticeship before forging out on your own.
Sasha, Deb, Nikki and Judi are all a credit to their profession, but what about the houses that don’t have staff of their calibre, and skimp on this basic but very essential service? The result? Substandard books and unhappy readers. How long should we wait while ‘editors’ who haven’t a clue about their job descriptions learn on the job?
That’s a tricky one because as we’ve seen no one I talked to is being paid a monthly wage, and most of these editors learned on the job.
Well, that’s kind of how writers do it too! ;-D
When reviewers are less than complimentary about a book many authors take offense, and rather than find the real culprits – themselves, or the publisher and editors who ‘helped’ them publish a less than memorable book – they take out their rage by slamming the reviewers.
That’s too complicated to answer in a comment box. Not all reviewers are created equal, you know that as well as authors do. Not every reviewer is worthy or respect — especially nowdays when (much like the self-published author who gets so frequently dumped on) most “reviewers” are just a gal or a guy with a blog and a lot of opinions.
So, yes, authors do — especially in this new interactive reading environment — sometimes lash out at reviewers. The roles here are changing, and there’s no pont pretending they’re not or that authors on the web should treat Janie-I-Love-Hawt-Books with the same reverence as they do Publisher’s Weekly.
So let’s be fair about that.
We don’t want to dump on books but we owe it to the readers to give them our opinion, the same way we would rate a bottle of wine, a movie or a meal; these are all creative efforts.
Sure! No argument. And your site does take a responsible attitude toward reviewing, which is why I think your reviews are highly regarded within this genre.
And part of what sparked this article was the LJ post you quoted me in private about the author fretting over the lack of editing she was receiving — content editing — and her very valid concerns.
I know it’s hard in this market but authors should choose publishing houses with solid reputations to give their books a chance at getting at least a good (never mind an excellent) editor.
Part of it is you don’t always know until you’re in the door what the deal is. And all editors at all publishing houses are not created equal. But generally I think you can go with the overall rep of a house. When a lot of reviewers keep picking up on the same problems…with a variety of books, well that does indicate something.
Also…things change. Loose Id adapted a rigid style manual last year. That house style manual wasn’t in play when I started with them.
If authors choose a recently established publisher, chances are that the final product will reflect the fact that that publisher doesn’t have enough money to invest in quality editorial resources.
Possibly. Probably. There are exceptions. JCP Books is a noticeable one. Blind Eye Books is another. Who was that micropublisher who spoke up on Friday? It’s not that quality can’t happen with a very tiny press — sometimes that IS the approach to quality. To keep tight control and a narrow focus.
Many books we read from new publishers don’t seem to be touched by an editor – copy OR content. Of course there are always exceptions, but not often.
Well, with a new publisher (usually self-publisher) popping up every five minutes, yes it does become problematical.
M/M, because of its popularity, is getting a lot of the worst talent in the business because so many people want to make a quick buck (and I include authors as well as publishers).
It’s really hard for authors. First of all, it’s really hard to see your work objectively. Secondly, the thrill of being published by ANYONE is enough to override almost all considerations.
The bucket of ice water I would toss out is that ANYONE can get published in this genre. No matter how bad you are, you will find a publisher here. So don’t let the fact that you’re being published override your commonsense.
Of course there are always exceptions but they are hard to come by. Many new authors could be great if only they had the right help but unfortunately in the rush to publish, some publishers don’t spend the time developing their editorial staff by investing in training so that they, in turn, can provide authors with the critical help they need.
It gets down to finances. But it also gets down to creative freedom. A lot of authors deliberately opt for self-publishing or micro-presses because they don’t want to relinquish control. And it isn’t always because they can’t cut it. Sometimes it really is a creative issue. There are some editors out there — the one I mentioned earlier is a prime example — who are far worse than no editor at all.
As reviewers, we will continue to provide honest reviews for the readers, always acknowledging that these reviews are only one person’s opinion. I’m just hoping to find that diamond when I least expect it.
Of course! And this is true of editors too. Editors WANT to find great books. They are in the business of finding stories to publish. They need good stories and good writers.
Do they have quotas to fill? Well, truthfully I’m not sure that’s a big issue for the better houses. If anything I think the major players are swamped with submissions and possibilities.
14 pages? FOURTEEN pages?
*kerthud*
Sheesh, *I’m* with Judi (who is, btw, a goddess), but…fourteen pages…?
Dear God.
I need nitroglycerin and a heart monitor now.
Well, maybe she said 7 pages? I forget. But I’m guessing a lot of it is simply discussion of the book itself, analysis of why some things worked and some things didn’t and her reasoning. I mean if you think about someone putting in thirteen pages worth of serious thought on your work — thinking that hard about your writing? That’s kind of flattering! That’s someone who is thinking as deeply about your work and your writing as you do!
Josh
This is the problem with generalizations. I absolutely agree that JCP Books and Blind Eye Books are the exception that proves the rule about micro or indie publishers. The other person you referred to was Storm Moon Press. I’ve only read one book by this publisher so I’m not sure that that’s enough for me to make a call one way or another. However Jordan’s books are an example of how epublishing should be done and I can say the same about BEB.
Reviewers are great until we say something that an author considers negative, then all of a sudden we grow horns. Maybe the horns were always there they just didn’t see them before. 😯
I love M/M authors who give readers a book that they can read and enjoy more than once. Not every book will be a “keeper,” and we don’t expect them to be. So some of the newer authors are learning their trade at our expense, but if they give us a good story, most of the time we will overlook some of the errors. There is no perfect book and we don’t expect M/M romances to be perfect – just give us value for money.
Reviewers are great until we say something that an author considers negative, then all of a sudden we grow horns. Maybe the horns were always there they just didn’t see them before
Hmmmm. And all this time I thought those were just cowlicks. ;-D
Well, and this is a point too…it’s getting a little philosophical here, but not every book is a surefire hit and it doesn’t mean that there’s a problem with the editing or anything else. Not every single book has the potential to be a breakout. It’s one of the most confusing elements of writing.
You start a story, it feels good, but halfway through you suddenly realize it’s going to be okay but not one of your best. And there isn’t even anything wrong, it’s just there isn’t anything magical about it either.
Should only the very best, absolute winner books be published?
I was chatting with my goodreads group recently and they were asking my favorite (of my own work) books versus my least favorite. And for every book that I wasn’t that keen about, there’s almost always someone who it’s their absolute favorite.
So…what does that mean? I work equally hard on everything I do. Why are some things Adrien and some things…not?
Not every book is destined for the Keeper shelf. It’s hard to accept because you work your tail off on all of them — and so does everyone else in the publishing chain at a good house.
Does the fact that some publishers insist on American spelling/vocabulary even for stories set in other English speaking countries come under the heading of house style? Because that annoys me intensely and can easily take me right out of an otherwise excellent story. I also think these publishers underestimate the intelligence of US readers.
Liade
That insistence on US spelling bugged the hell out of me with Dash and Dingo which was set in the 30’s in England and Australia. The spelling drove me nuts and took me right out of an otherwise excellent story.
It indicates a lack of respect for the reader.
Or it may simply be the publisher herself is not particularly well-read and does genuinely find those terms confusing and hard to follow.
Dash and Dingo was one of the books I was thinking of.
Yes. And it is beyond stupid.
Did the blazing success of Harlequin Books somehow escape these publishers? Is it possible they never read any of those old romances with their adorable jumpers and boots and flats and torches and sarnies????
I know my mother and all her friends gobbled those things down. They were just exotic enough while not being so foreign as to alienate and confuse.
Well, in defense of smaller pubs, this is standard operating procedure across the board for American publishers. (See also Harry Potter.) I’m actually bugged more when it’s applied inconsistently. I’ve read a few books lately that Americanized spelling in some instances (taking the “u” out of flavour and colour for example) but left others (kerb, jewellery, etc.) At least if you’re going to Americanize the book, make it universal.
It is widespread, though not uniform, I agree.
And it should be consistent within the book, yes! ;-D
Not all m/m e-publishers insist on this – for example neither Samhain nor Carina do.
Incidentally: though I have books with Harry Potter wrestling with trash cans, that was only in editions solely destined for the US market. Brit spelling/vocabulary versions were at least available and I have them, too.
This is a HUGE bugbear of mine as well. Drives me absolutely crazy.
(I’m reading an historical sci-fi novel at the moment, where the character refers to his mother as “Mom”. Flipped me right out of the story.)
It’s all part of that dumbing down trend in publishing — something that originally began as an effort to compete with TV, believe it or not.
I will say Loose Id let me keep the Britishisms in the I Spy series, which I think helped a lot — how the heck else would the character have translated to “British” without the occasional use of a British word or turn of phrase?
But there weren’t that many, and it was before they developed their new house style guide.
where the character refers to his mother as “Mom”
Maybe he was really referring to HRM.
Speaking strictly as a reader, there is alot I can overlook. If the grammar, punctuation and leaving out of words gets too excessive, I can continue on, but it makes me mutter under my breath. What I really hate is being pulled out of the story to say WTF. I recently read a book where it was specifically mentioned that the “bad guy” wasn’t there. In the next paragraph he was staring someone down. Huh? I had to stop, page back, try to see when he arrived on the scene. Alas, he never did arrive on the scene, so I was left to conclude he teleported. I hate feeling like I’ve missed something and having to go back and look for it.
I don’t know how to even classify that kind of mistake. One reason why you do ideally want that third set of eyes is the author and the editor can get so close to the work that they can lose continuity. Especially if it’s a story with a tight timeline or there have been a lot of cuts and restructuring.
To me that kind of gross error is…well, there can’t have been a copyeditor.
Thanks so much for the perspective.
As a reader who enjoys a lot of books across multiple genres, I have noticed a disturbing trend in romance (although it shows up in other genres as well). Let me say that I have not found this in any of the books published by the publishers that these editors work for. It drives me crazy and I’m not sure if it is a sign of poor writing and poor editing or poor writing and lack of editing. I’m not even clear if this is the job of a content editor or a copy editor. I am finding way too many books where perspective and tense waver back and forth. Some of these books are mainstream published. It drives me crazy and completely turns me off of some authors. I think this is a result of the push to press of certain currently popular subgenres (vampires come to mind).
What I look for as a reader is good character development, a believable plot, good world-building (I read a lot of SF and fantasy) and setting, and pacing that keeps me reading. I also want to “like” the protagonist(s).
It is an interesting coincidence that I have been involved in a email discussion about this very topic relating to a big name SF author, whose books seem to be getting bigger while the story content does not. Lots of extraneous stuff that could and should have been jettisoned. The supposition in that case is that the author has become such a big commodity that editors are afraid to say “fix this”.
It drives me crazy and completely turns me off of some authors. I think this is a result of the push to press of certain currently popular subgenres (vampires come to mind).
It’s also due to cuts at publishing houses. There’s as much or more work but less people to do it.
It is an interesting coincidence that I have been involved in a email discussion about this very topic relating to a big name SF author, whose books seem to be getting bigger while the story content does not. Lots of extraneous stuff that could and should have been jettisoned. The supposition in that case is that the author has become such a big commodity that editors are afraid to say “fix this”.
There are stylistic choices that just don’t work for every reader — there was a time where the majority of fiction was written in omniscient viewpoint, but readers aren’t used to that anymore and it’s not easy to pull off anyway — writers aren’t trained to write like that (it really is a whole different approach to storytelling) — so sometimes you get head-hopping. Sometimes readers mistake omniscient for head-hopping.
The switching POV is enormously popular with thrillers. I find it distancing, myself. And why is it that all serial killers in all thrillers have the EXACT same voice?
JL-And why is it that all serial killers in all thrillers have the EXACT same voice?
NK-It’s probably the same reason that they have this weird tendency to speak in third person present tense. “It puts the lotion on its skin…”
Laughing too hard to type. I think I read that one last night.
You might know that I share three of these editors with you, and I can’t say enough about their dedication and commitment to quality work They’ve (more than once) pulled me through the keyhole of my own inadequacies to get a better story out of me. I have nothing but good things to say about the editing process, even when it’s difficult, even when it’s painful, and I trust my editors absolutely. I can’t think of a time when I’ve refused to consider a content-related edit and I’m more likely than not to make it.
Even so, there are times when I see a long list of observations on the first pass of a book and I’ll need a day or two to take stock. The only thing worse is a short or nonexistent list of editorial comments after a first pass. 😯
I am so grateful to my editors. Without them I fumble around in my own head, entirely alone and often too indecisive. I look forward to hearing from them, and I like it when it feels like we’re a team.
I always say that if the story is a success, it’s my editor’s as well as mine, and if it’s a failure, it’s mine alone.
As my writing schedule grew heavier and heavier and my mental exhaustion increased, I’ve leaned more and more on my editors. I’ve turned in rough drafts that barely deserved to be called more than outlines, but with one exception (and nobody I interviewed) my editors have been there for me. They’ve hauled me along over the wastelands and up the mountains, coaxed, cajoled, and occasionally slapped me upside the head when I truly thought I could not crank out one freaking word more.
Very, very rarely do I disagree with a content edit. I may offer a few panicky Are you sures???? but the point of having a content editor is to have that objective and informed brain applied to the your work. It’s a gift. It speeds up the process hundredfold. Because yes, given enough time you might come to the same conclusions or notice the same weaknesses yourself, but you would need time and distance from the manuscript. The editor comes in and tells you what you need to know within a matter of days.
It may not always be great news, but it’s generally the news you need to hear.
As a reader I dont have much to say on this topic, except that I wish Samhain and Blind Eye books would publish more often! I usually like most m/m romances published by Samhain but lately they’ve been releasing less freqeuently (at least I think so, lol). Blind Eye is just fantastic, I love their fantasy and want MORE! 😀
(Love, love, love Jordans stuff too!).
I usually like most m/m romances published by Samhain but lately they’ve been releasing less freqeuently (at least I think so, lol).
Are they?
I don’t think I noticed.
Blind Eye is just fantastic, I love their fantasy and want MORE.
They’ve built a sterling rep, for sure.
And Jordan is the proof that DIY can work, but she doesn’t try to copyedit herself. And no matter how careful you are–and how many copy and line editors you hire–stuff does still occasionally creep through. But it always did. I’m a book collector, and and I’m here to tell you, those old classic mysteries were far from flawless.
Are they?
Heh, I want one m/m book per week dammit! 😎
I thought they were!
Pfft, they’ve been slacking lately! Actually, they’ve been releasing m/m books irregurarly since this autumn, don’t know what’s up with that.
Okay, full disclosure: I work as a copyeditor/proofreader in the dread “traditional” “New York” publishing industry. My day job is at an indie pub, but I do some freelance work on the side for a couple of big houses. So I feel the need to step in here and defend copyeditors! Not all of us are humorless slaves to the Chicago Manual! At least not all the time!
So I’m probably biased. I’m very pro-editor. And I’m not so arrogant as to assume that I can edit my own writing effectively. So I very much agree with almost every part of this post; good content editors are undervalued but are worth their weight in gold. When I, as an author, made the decision to go the epub route with my first novel (after researching like hell), I was wondering how this would play out and was pleasantly surprised with how talented and diligent the editors were at all stages of the process. I was blessed with a content editor at one of my publishers that I think is extraordinarily talented. It’s tough to slog through all of her comments sometimes, but they always serve to make the book better.
So editorial quality is a huge factor in my publisher decision, too. Maybe it’s because I also make a living as an editor, but I do want to work with companies that value editors and have talented editors on staff.
(I still have some trouble reconciling my role in the process. I’ve worked in the publishing industry for about a decade, but I only signed my first author contract about a year and a half ago, and sometimes, it gets weird. I’ve quoted the Chicago Manual back at my editors, and there was a discussion through several rounds of editing for one of my books about how to properly punctuate this one sentence. It’s possible I’m excessively anal-retentive, but I feel like that’s a good quality for a copyeditor to have. :grin:)
Oops, I realised I DO have something to say on this topic after all. I actually don’t agree that m/m books/storylines are so overly repetative and overused. Especially if we’re talking romance. To me, F/M romance is FILLED with cliche storylines and null character development and as long as you stick with a good puplisher, the m/m romance books are generally better imo.
I would say the same goes for a part of the m/m fantasy literature that is not explicitly romance. I mean, there is a whole cliche genre of female kick-as PI/Paranormal detectives in “normal” fantasy fiction that is totally predictable. Or what about the overused apprentice of assasin/magician/whatever.
I wouldn’t mind some more heavy thriller/spy/horror plots in m/m but we do have some really nice detective series ( 😀 ). Though I guess there is a tendency for those to be closer to romance than the equivalent in maintream fiction. I would love to see someone like Rob Thurman write an m/m fantasy.
I agree that there is a number of m/m romance books with vampires/werewolfs/sub/dom/younameit that are churned out without much thought but I just see them as equivalent to Harlequin books in m/f romance. Quick fix, predictable plot, without much depth.
Oops, I realised I DO have something to say on this topic after all. I actually don’t agree that m/m books/storylines are so overly repetative and overused. Especially if we’re talking romance. To me, F/M romance is FILLED with cliche storylines and null character development and as long as you stick with a good puplisher, the m/m romance books are generally better imo.
Well, there are only so many variations of plot to start with, so some repetition is going to be inevitable, and some is going to be welcome.
I loved the X-Files, but what I loved were the monster-of-the-week episodes. I just wanted to see a variation on that week after week. I never got tired of it so long as it was just different enough.
When I discover a new author and I go looking for his next book, I’m sort of hoping for the same again. I want it to be different enough, but still on the same lines of what I loved.
And I’m not unique in this. This is why chain restaurants do well and series books do well, and why fans are often dismayed when a band suddenly takes off in a completely experimental direction.
I would say the same goes for a part of the m/m fantasy literature that is not explicitly romance. I mean, there is a whole cliche genre of female kick-as PI/Paranormal detectives in “normal” fantasy fiction that is totally predictable. Or what about the overused apprentice of assasin/magician/whatever.
It’s like anything. If something is popular, there will be a million imitators in short order. And some will expand and some will be merely a watered down version.
I wouldn’t mind some more heavy thriller/spy/horror plots in m/m but we do have some really nice detective series ( ). Though I guess there is a tendency for those to be closer to romance than the equivalent in maintream fiction. I would love to see someone like Rob Thurman write an m/m fantasy.
By definition, I believe m/m is romantic literature. Otherwise it’s just gay literature, right? What would be the difference otherwise?
I agree that there is a number of m/m romance books with vampires/werewolfs/sub/dom/younameit that are churned out without much thought but I just see them as equivalent to Harlequin books in m/f romance. Quick fix, predictable plot, without much depth.
Interesting. Yes, I think repetition is pretty much inevitable in any popular genre.
I went through my first pro edit last year and it hurt so good! 😀 Content edits were like being worked over with a baseball bat (several times) and copy edits like being scrubbed with a wire brush. But my god I learned so much from both phases. I now have a big list of my problem words for when I’m doing my own editing (“now” and “own” are two of them for a start.) Though I barely need the list. Before the edit I couldn’t even see them, since then I can barely see anything else when editing.
Great article, thanks, Josh.
I’m glad you enjoyed the article, Becky. I think most authors (other than utter egomaniacs) do appreciate the editing process. I don’t know about “enjoy” it, because it is by nature all about where you need to work harder, and just finished a book is so godawful tiring. But knowing the book will be the best it can be, is a huge relief.
Not all of us are humorless slaves to the Chicago Manual! At least not all the time!
No! No, of course not. And I don’t mean to make it sound like you are. Copyeditors are human too. ;-D
In fact, just the variation in tone some copyeditors use makes a huge difference to how the author responds.
At Samhain and Carina, for example, they use the word “suggest” a lot. Now, I don’t know that they’re really suggesting or not, but allowing me the illusion of choice, goes a long way to improving my attitude.
I’ve had fellow authors quote me copyedit comments that are phrased in ways guaranteed to put anyone’s back up. A sarcastic or mocking tone from a copyeditor? Huh? Especially when a good percentage of the time, the copyeditor is wrong or their suggestion is merely a stylistic one?
The copy/line edit doesn’t have to be a hostile, confrontational process. It should in theory be pretty minor, really.
So I’m probably biased. I’m very pro-editor. And I’m not so arrogant as to assume that I can edit my own writing effectively.
Just for the record, I don’t think anyone can edit themselves unless they’re going to take months and even years to do it, and even then I wouldn’t advise it.
So I very much agree with almost every part of this post; good content editors are undervalued but are worth their weight in gold. When I, as an author, made the decision to go the epub route with my first novel (after researching like hell), I was wondering how this would play out and was pleasantly surprised with how talented and diligent the editors were at all stages of the process. I was blessed with a content editor at one of my publishers that I think is extraordinarily talented. It’s tough to slog through all of her comments sometimes, but they always serve to make the book better.
I think that was one of the pleasant surprises for me too when I turned to epubbing. That editors existed at all, and that so many of them were really excellent.
So editorial quality is a huge factor in my publisher decision, too. Maybe it’s because I also make a living as an editor, but I do want to work with companies that value editors and have talented editors on staff.
Absolutely. It’s got to be one of the primary considerations when choosing a publisher.
(I still have some trouble reconciling my role in the process. I’ve worked in the publishing industry for about a decade, but I only signed my first author contract about a year and a half ago, and sometimes, it gets weird. I’ve quoted the Chicago Manual back at my editors, and there was a discussion through several rounds of editing for one of my books about how to properly punctuate this one sentence. It’s possible I’m excessively anal-retentive, but I feel like that’s a good quality for a copyeditor to have.
I would agree with you on that one.
I also think it would be delightful if there was some kind of standardization between houses. The spaces around the em dashes varies from house to house and I just can’t keep it straight. Or who will let me use semi-colons and who has the thing about them. 😀
None of which matters at all to readers.
(woops, replied to the wrong place before)
As a reader, I think I am fairly easy to please. I’m always on the lookout for the next hidden gem, but I’ve got realistic expectations in the m/m genre. I’m reading in the field because there’s something here that I can’t get elsewhere, so I’m limited by choices and I willingly sacrifice a lot of DNWs to get my fix *g*.
My only requirement in this particular genre ATM is properly copyedited books (I am not even talking about content edits). I know some readers can ignore the superficial errors that copyeditors work hard to eliminate, but I’m definitely not one of them – I get yanked out of the story too quickly. These days, I only buy books from trusted writers and publishers, and also books that come highly recced.
I mentioned this before – I bought eight books of a series in bulk (lapse of judgment on my part and a mistake I won’t make again), all of them very badly edited if edited at all. As a completist, I’ll continue with the series, but that’s it with the publisher and the author.
I’m guessing most readers don’t read exclusively in any single genre, and speaking for myself, I’m no different. My reading time is precious, so I read selectively in all fields. Of course, if the editing process ever makes its revolution in the m/m genre, I’ll be back to celebrate and devour everything from this field again.
In the meantime, I’ll just enjoy my joyful discovery of several wonderful, talented, and gorgeous writers and be patient. After all, patience is a requirement in all readers.
Lastly, it’s a fascinating read – the process that editors go through to polish works for publication. It makes sense that some (err if not all) of my favorite works have been honed by all of the editors you interviewed. (and i know one of my imminent favorites is definitely polished by an editor above *cough* I-have-a-wild-crush-on-GinnHale *cough* – speaking of, my issue arrived in the mail :D)
*cough* I-have-a-wild-crush-on-GinnHale *cough* – speaking of, my issue arrived in the mail 😀 )
I got mine today as well and I’m in looove! 😀
Oh no, don’t tease me! I can’t read it yet (….something about an office setting…)! On a scale of 1-10, is it around 11’ish or 12’ish? 🙂
I’m only on chapter 2 but chapter 1 was a knockout. I just dont have words for Ginns writing!
So very excited, you don’t even know! I was about to reread Lord of the White Hell because I miss her writing so much. Day, end quicker. (and i’ll stop hijacking the thread)
All of you readers who love Ginn’s work will be happy to hear that she will be interviewed on the site in May. You will have an opportunity to ask her questions and share your enthusiasm for her writing. 😎 😀 🙂
Is this Rifter you’re talking about?
Affirmative. I’m trying (and failing) to stay on topic 😛
I think it must be. Book one came out today.
😀 Lucky, lucky readers.
my issue arrived in the mail
You lucky lucky reader you! 😀 When you say it arrived in the mail, do you mean email? Or is this a printed format? If it’s printed I’m gonna jump on it. I can’t get enough of Ginn and BEB.
Ahahaha, sorry, in my enthusiasm, I rarely make sense. When I say ‘arrived in the mail’ I meant the link to the download via Weightless Books arrived in my email. When you buy from their website, you get to pick one format (but if you have issues, their tech guys Gavin and Michael will help you out with different formats – I’ve sent too many emails to them :P).
From what I know, the Rifter is not in printed format – it is exclusively eprint for now. But if you order all ten at once, you save 10 dollars (USD) and the subscription link will arrive on the day of the release. Hope that answers your question! 😎
Interesting article, Josh.
I’ve spent a good deal of my on-line time reading fan-fiction, and have been involved with authors and betas in that area. I’ve always been fascinated in their views on the process of editing, which is not so different to that of the “real” publishing world. The same thing applies … a good editor does make all the difference. (Have to add that the quality of some fan-fiction available is dramatically higher than a few of the published m/m stories I’ve purchased.)
Regarding proof reading and the new wave of m/m publications – I’ve never seen so many grammatical errors in stories since e-publications became available. It never occured to me that anything I paid for wouldn’t be grammatically correct. That’s been a real eye-opener.
Regarding proof reading and the new wave of m/m publications – I’ve never seen so many grammatical errors in stories since e-publications became available. It never occured to me that anything I paid for wouldn’t be grammatically correct. That’s been a real eye-opener.
I think what happened is the original word on ebooks was so horrendous: the dreadful writing, the horrendous cover art, the lack of anything resembling editing. It was practically a joke.
Well, writers responded to that and publishing houses were formed and they copied a lot of what mainstream publishing did well — they understood the importance of getting people who could really write (not just publishing themselves) and attractive cover art AND editing. That last was the biggie because it was truly the sign of a professional mindset.
But after finally reaching the point where epublishing is no longer considered synonymous with self-publishing…BAM! All these writers suddenly turn to self-publishing and here we go again. It’s alarmingly close to full circle.
I guess we can largely blame (or thank — depending on how you look at it) Amazon and Kindle for that one.
The whole “house style” thing makes my want to beat my head against a wall, particularly when the publisher treats their house style guide as though it were writ in marble by the fiery finger of God. :/ And especially-particularly when it contains rules that are just plain wrong, and refusing to budge from it results in the author (the person whose name is on the book) look like an ignorant fool.
Not that I have any house style issues. [cough]
A good content editor is like gold, definitely. [nod] I want someone to point out my oopses and glitches and confusing bits and repeated words and continuity errors and subplots that never went anywhere. A good content editor makes me look good; that’s a bonus, not a burden.
I have to say that this:
(Passive voice is the use of the word “was” when a stronger verb could be used such as: “He was reading his book aloud.” Vs. “He read his book aloud.” Or “He stood, reading his book aloud.”)
is not accurate. Passive voice is a construction where the subject of the sentence receives the action (is passively acted upon) rather than performing an action itself. “He was reading his book aloud” is in active voice, even if it’s unspectacular. A passive reconstruction of that sentence would be “The book was read aloud by him,” making the book, which is the object of the verb, into the subject of the sentence.
This is a common error circulating about passive voice, clearly even among professional editors. Saying “This should be rewritten with a stronger verb,” is perfectly good advice. Claiming a sentence is passive when it’s not just leads to confusion.
Angie, grammar geek
The whole “house style” thing makes my want to beat my head against a wall, particularly when the publisher treats their house style guide as though it were writ in marble by the fiery finger of God. :/ And especially-particularly when it contains rules that are just plain wrong, and refusing to budge from it results in the author (the person whose name is on the book) look like an ignorant fool.
Not that I have any house style issues. [cough]
It’s worth noting that both Samhain and Carina do have house style guides but that according to their editors, they are not inflexible — and yet these two publishers probably have the top rep for copyediting in our genre.
To me, that sends a positive message.
Thanks for the enlightening article and interview! I’m a copy editor for a healthcare publication, so I get to see the arguments between keeping “the author’s voice” vs. having the author make sense. Ours is a non-fiction world, so there is more power in our hands, but we still try not to mutilate things too much. And it definitely irks me every time I read a book that hasn’t been copy edited well. But I’ll get off that soap box..
I’m glad I got to hear so much from people in the business–in that part of the business–both as someone who would consider moving in that direction professionally and as a hopeful writer. Thank you and thank you to the interviewees!
ETA: Thanks to all the editors’ hard work in producing great fiction for us to enjoy!
I do think there’s a big difference in editing non-fiction and editing fiction. Not that non-fiction doesn’t have to contend with author voice and author style, but as you say, many of the decisions are more clear cut.
To approach editing fiction with an inflexible this-is-what-the-rule-book-says is the equivilent of what paint-by-numbers is to art.
And there’s no question — none — that books need to be copyedited. But I’ve known copyeditors to go to the mat over a dialog tag and totally miss a continuity error. The reader notices continuity errors. The reader rarely gives a damn about a dialog tag.
I think copy editors get so caught up in using English correctly that they forget the point of using English to get an idea across. If the idea is conveyed, then a few minor squibbles are just that, minor!
And yes, fact checking (for continuity, or making sure Bob is talking when Bob IS talking, or Bob’s hair didn’t just turn brown instead of black) is vital. More important, even. (But don’t quote me on that lest the Grammar Police come.)
So not all of us are crazy (err, at least in that way).
I think copy editors get so caught up in using English correctly that they forget the point of using English to get an idea across. If the idea is conveyed, then a few minor squibbles are just that, minor!
It does too often seem to turn into a clash of egos and wills. A situation where the reader and the book seem to get lost along the way.
Very fascinating and informative article. Having never approached a career in writing, but having written for professional endeavors and recreation, I can’t understand how writers let their works go to publication with no editing. I proof my professional emails several times myself and have others proof them if it is important enough. The publishing houses that are trying to make a quick buck by cutting out or skimping on the editing process are a disservice to the entire industry, regardless of genre. Hopefully, as sells quickly decline and bad reviews accumulate, they will get with the program.
The editing process is crucial to quality writing for any purpose, and I have no time or patience for writers and publishers who cannot invest in the process.
I believe there are many new authors who do not know the information you provided, and I hope that they can learn to expect more from the editing process.
I can’t understand how writers let their works go to publication with no editing. I know of a couple of cases where books were released before the author ever saw copyedits (and apparently there were none).
Yet the authors went on publishing with those publishers for a time. Why? Sometimes they were writing series and the publisher held the rights to the series, sometimes they didn’t know any better — in fact, I think that happens a lot, sometimes they tried to get into other publishing houses and failed.
It does happen. It’s kind of a Catch-22. It’s hard to get better without help, but it’s hard to get the help until you can move on to a good publisher.
Allow me to say that not all ebook publishers have qualified editors or writers for that matter. A lot of what is being put out there in this genre right now is pig swill.
On the other hand, there are excellent authors who are completely frustrated from publishing anything when they come up against an “editor” who thinks he/she has the right to completely rewrite the author’s work “to suit their own taste.” They do this without the author’s permission, without any feedback/compromise with the author. 😯 Any author facing this should run, fast and far.
Authors should never give a publisher a “rough draft” Josh. It should be polished to near perfection to begin with…of perhaps I am just a perfectionist.
Grammar and comma usage is one thing, trying to completely rewrite an author’s work is another. I am a professional author with fifteen years of experience and many mainstream novels. I am not a novice by any means. To have that “editor” attempt to rewrite my novel without my input or permission infuriated me beyond belief! A knockdown dragout ensued after which I yanked my manuscript away from them. Needless to say, I will NEVER go back to that publisher again.
Being a polished, well known author does not always help you in getting a real editor or any respect from a so-called “publisher.”
First tell a great story, with beautiful language and believable characters. Make it long enough to actually be called a novel. Polish your words and your sword because you will probably need both when dealing with ebook “editors.” Good luck.
Maris
I love this. The first part is what all readers want and hope to get every time we open a new book.
As for the second part, I broke up laughing. 😯 There will probably be a huge run on swords after your comment.
Authors should never give a publisher a “rough draft” Josh. It should be polished to near perfection to begin with…of perhaps I am just a perfectionist.
An idealist, perhaps. Actually, most of the time you do turn in a rough draft to your editor — in an on-going editorial relationship. This is a good thing and the right mindset to have because it means you’re open to and prepared for the changes that must and will come.
Sending in what you consider to be a final draft to your editor is bound to result in shock when the editor returns it with requested changes and suggestions.
That said, at this point I’m generally startled if I get much more than a request to flesh out and develop (and it’s rare that I don’t know exactly where I’m going to be asked for that to happen).
But the final drafts I was turning in by the end of last year were not my typical final draft. We’ll leave it at that. ;-D
Then there’s also the recent case where I sent the WRONG draft, but let’s not talk about that either.
Grammar and comma usage is one thing, trying to completely rewrite an author’s work is another. I am a professional author with fifteen years of experience and many mainstream novels. I am not a novice by any means. To have that “editor” attempt to rewrite my novel without my input or permission infuriated me beyond belief! A knockdown dragout ensued after which I yanked my manuscript away from them. Needless to say, I will NEVER go back to that publisher again.
One of the big attractions in epubbing IS the relative creative freedom. But at the same time there’s the balance between the needs of the publisher and the needs of the author.
This starts to get into that philosophical approach of “publishing partners.” Not every house takes that view.
The fact is for every Josh Lanyon or Maris, there are ten new eager authors who won’t say boo and will write perfectly competent, perfectly entertaining, and perfectly commercial (in the grand scheme of publishing) manuscripts for any given publisher.
For some publishers *we* are a disposable commodity — let alone editors!
Being a polished, well known author does not always help you in getting a real editor or any respect from a so-called “publisher.”
Without dating myself, I feel your pain.
First tell a great story, with beautiful language and believable characters. Make it long enough to actually be called a novel.
Unless you’re writing novellas! ;-D
Polish your words and your sword because you will probably need both when dealing with ebook “editors.” Good luck.
I’m sorry you had such a terrible experience with epubs. I hope you gave it more than one shot because they aren’t, by any means, all the same here.
Nolagal
One of the reasons for Josh writing these articles is to provide this type of information to authors – new or more experienced. Knowledge is power.
Some of these posts are directly in response to questions asked by authors.
I should really be in bed by now, but I just had to read this first.
Great article.
Very informative, very helpful.
I have a new appreciation for editors.
Thank you, Josh, and of course, Deborah, Nicole, Sasha and Judith for giving us this peek into the daily life of an editor 🙂
Hey there, Cayendi! Sweet dreams.
I too admire :god: a talented editor! I know NK has a web site that we can see her work-looked it up after her fab post. Do editors have sites that promote their work?
I do not begrudge $$ spent on a quality story whether I end up liking the plot or not. :bravo: Whatever it takes to get there I admire the product and don’t mind the investment.
The hard part of buying e-books is not beinging able to see the difference in the good, bad, and the ugly at full price!
If someone wants to make a line of books with proven story tellers and editors- style not important- GO FOR IT! WE WILL COME!
I just had a HORRIBLE experience buying a new, to me,author from respected publisher AND editor (that’s why I risked it). I paid $8 for it.:wallbash: Ack! Ack! It was not ready forprimetime :grumble:
Experiences like this leave the buying public floundering. We don’t know who to support for quality work (I don’t mean perfection but story telling!
Thanks to Wave:biglove: and her team willing to shovel through… some of these talented teams are identified and I can buy them!
I am glad to hear Josh say that this phase shall pass! I love the creativity the indie presses provide. Thanks for the post. Sorry for the rant :blush:
I too admire a talented editor! I know NK has a web site that we can see her work-looked it up after her fab post. Do editors have sites that promote their work?
Probably not. I think that’s what makes the editor’s job difficult. How do you prove what a great editor you are when your goal is to be essentially invisible? 😀
Basically you can show the list of who you edit, and hopefully that counts for something.
Yes. I like to give Wave a hard time now and again, but she’s worked very hard to turn this site into premier reference source.
Josh
I’m sending you Irish coffees for that nod. 😯
These green balls of Christian’s are addictive. 😎
‘Evening.
This column has been extremely interesting. As I read, I’ve continued to think about how absolutely lucky I am to have been assigned to my editor. She has taught me an incredible amount, about publishing in general and certainly about my writing, in sometimes excruciating detail. *g*
I shudder to think that I’d be turning out pulpy schmaltz without her guidance, direction and baseball bat. I’m very new to the publishing game but I’ve already learned to appreciate the skills my editor has.
It can’t be easy for any editor to have to tiptoe around the author’s baby, while cracking the whip to get the job done.
Thanks for a great post, Josh.
Hi there, JM.
For the smart writer, the chance to work with a good editor is worth a lot of bullshit.
I’d like to think the horror stories were few and far between, and I think they mostly are. Obviously there are some creative partnerships that just don’t work and sometimes that’s a clash of personalities.
You do have to be able to trust your editor, and part of that trust begins by believing that your editor wants a good book more than your editor wants to be “right.”
When I entered this business, you were kind enough to answer my email asking about working with more than one publisher. You told me then, that having a great relationship with people you could trust was worth a great deal. You were, of course, correct and I can appreciate that now more than ever.
Thank you again.
You’re very welcome. Glad to see the advice paid off — and congratulations on your success!
I’ve been a copyeditor for over 30 years. Copyeditors get their instructions from the publisher, sometimes in the form of multiple-page memos regarding what is and is not acceptable regarding the manuscript/file to be edited. And sometimes those instructions are just ridiculous. If an author sees a query that begins “according to the publisher” or “the publisher has requested” or “the publisher has asked,” this is copyeditor code for “I don’t agree, but these are my instructions.”
If the copyeditor is experienced and trusted by the publisher, there is usually wiggle room regarding style. Here’s how it works for me: I talk to the author, with whom I have formed a relationship of mutual respect. (We both understand that this isn’t my book. My job is to remove any obstacle that may keep the reader from making a full connection with the prose, not to impose my style.) The author explains why this particular style should not apply. Discussions ensue. If I agree with the author’s objection, I will argue with the publisher for the author’s point of view. I win most, but I lose some.
However, there are copyeditors who simply have to be right at all costs. These are the rigid copyeditors whose queries are adversarial and breathtakingly rude and for whom copyediting is of the slash and burn variety. A good copyeditor is like a low-impact camper who leaves no visible traces of his or her passage. A good copyeditor reads the book once for context before beginning the line edit. A good copyeditor asks politely if an edit has changed the intended meaning, tactfully indicates that the character had blue eyes in chapter 2 and brown eyes in chapter 6, and asks the in-house editor if it is really necessary to stick to the in-house style in this particular instance because, damn, this prose is beautiful! Josh Lanyon, I’m looking at you.
Authors, if you have a good experience with a copyeditor, request that person for your next book, whoever your publisher. Most publishers are pleased to accommodate you. I sometimes get e-mail reserving my services 6 months out. Writers should be writing, not fighting with someone over commas and dialogue tags!
Oh, and if a publisher asked me to cut text, I would refuse. I’m a copyeditor, not a content editor. Apple, meet orange.
Here’s how it works for me: I talk to the author, with whom I have formed a relationship of mutual respect. (We both understand that this isn’t my book. My job is to remove any obstacle that may keep the reader from making a full connection with the prose, not to impose my style.)
Absolutely. And this is what the smart author wants too. It’s no use preserving the integrity of the prose if the prose doesn’t make sense to anyone but the author.
However, there are copyeditors who simply have to be right at all costs. These are the rigid copyeditors whose queries are adversarial and breathtakingly rude and for whom copyediting is of the slash and burn variety.
Yes. These are the ones who give the others (probably the majority) a bad rep. The control freaks. The ones for whom it is the letter of the law whether the law makes sense or not, whether the strict interpretation of the law violates the basic rules of good writing and storytelling. The ones for whom every misplaced comma is a chance to impose their will on someone else.
A good copyeditor is like a low-impact camper who leaves no visible traces of his or her passage. A good copyeditor reads the book once for context before beginning the line edit. A good copyeditor asks politely if an edit has changed the intended meaning, tactfully indicates that the character had blue eyes in chapter 2 and brown eyes in chapter 6,
😛
Or changed names!
and asks the in-house editor if it is really necessary to stick to the in-house style in this particular instance because, damn, this prose is beautiful! Josh Lanyon, I’m looking at you.
And here’s looking right back at you because you are the kind of copyeditor who provides the safety net for the acrobats who occasionally go a little too far out on that limb or don’t notice the high wire is coming apart.
Authors, if you have a good experience with a copyeditor, request that person for your next book, whoever your publisher. Most publishers are pleased to accommodate you. I sometimes get e-mail reserving my services 6 months out. Writers should be writing, not fighting with someone over commas and dialogue tags!
Well, and here’s the proof of you learn something every day because it had never occurred to me to request a particular copyeditor. Half the time I think their names are hidden from us to protect them from wrathful authors. 😀
Oh, and if a publisher asked me to cut text, I would refuse. I’m a copyeditor, not a content editor. Apple, meet orange.
THANK YOU!
Or changed names!
Mssrs Grimaldi and Garibaldi send their regards 😀
These apples are really tasty 🙂
DON’T REMIND ME. 😉
Very late to the party, but thank you Josh for such an informative and interesting piece!
For the last eight or so months, my life has been blessed with a wonderful friend and beta reader who’s day job is copy editing. She is my angel. Short story? No problem. Novel? No problem! She fact checks my historical work, line edits my abominably huge drafts, and both holds my hand and brings me down to earth on my content issues. Though I still cringe when I see how I’ve mangle the english language yet again, she really is my beacon in the storm. She’s given me a human face to an invaluable part of the publishing process.
So another thanks Josh,since this article made me treasure her all the more!
Okay, I’m also super late and I haven’t read all the other comments (these week is WAY too busy for me, ugh), but I just want to say Sasha Knight is my Samhain editor as well and I wouldn’t trade her for anything. She’s taught me SO much about writing, and that’s such a gift. Plus she totally gets my style and my voice 🙂 And, yeah, she has an eye for copy editing.
Speaking of, copyeditors are extemely valuable. Someone has to be the detail person, because man, it ain’t me. LOL. But I know all the copy editors must hate me because I reject roughly half their edits. I rarely take dialogue edits, because most of my characters do not speak in a grammatically correct way and I refuse to edit them to talk that way. Sasha understands this about me. The poor copy editors don’t always know that! LOL.