Recently I read an M/M book that led me to comment in my review about what I perceived as a very negative portrayal of the female characters. Both the story and the protagonists were well done and I quite enjoyed the book except for this one black eye. To my surprise a few bloggers defended the portrayals in the book and indicated that these were true to life depictions of the women in this case.
Shortly after, Sean Kennedy commented on the same post and expressed somewhat similar views to mine (quelle surprise):) and then the lovely and delightful Jenre came along to add her two cents worth. Obviously neither was busy on that day – how else would they have had the time to visit? *g* So I asked them if we could do a joint post about this topic and they agreed, which is why you have the pleasure today of reading what we really think about the characterizations of women in M/M books, and whether there is even a need for them in a gay man’s world. I invite your comments and look forward to a lively, spirited debate on this very touchy subject.
Next week it’s the men’s turn. Kidding!!! *g*
Sean Kennedy
Disclaimer: I am not an anthropologist or sociologist. I just hold a lowly Arts degree, in search of a career that does not involve fast food, like so many of you.
But I am opinionated. That qualifies me for a lot, surely?
I was raised by strong, opinionated women. I always made friends with strong, opinionated women. I am drawn to strong, opinionated women in music, movies and books. So when it comes to the fiction I write, I like to have strong female characters within it. Sometimes this can be difficult, as I write primarily in the m/m genre. Like any other genre, it has its own limitations. One area I think it often fails is in the depiction of women.
The interesting thing about m/m fiction is that it deals with characters who are marginalised by mainstream society. But within the genre they become our primary focus, and we can pretty much guarantee they are always going to be depicted in a positive light. But what this also means is that women can then become the marginalised characters and then get slotted into certain stereotypes: the fag hag, the spurned woman who aims to get in between our heroes for her own nefarious purposes, the homophobe, etc etc.
These types of characters get played out over and over again, and it can all get a bit tiring when you consume a lot of these books (as we tend to do). And I really don’t get it. Women are fantastic! When I wrote “Tigers and Devils” I really wanted to show that. I wanted the supporting characters to be strong and well-rounded, and that it not be some sort of Gaytopia where the lead characters are surrounded by an “everybody’s gay!” environment. Because that’s not the world we live in. There is no Gaytopia – or if there is, they’re keeping it a secret from me.
Even if there was, I wouldn’t want to live there. I like diversity. I like my straight friends. And I love my strong, opinionated, shrewd, honest and loving women.
So do female characters in m/m fiction need to be afforded certain protections? I think so, especially if there are only a couple in the story and they are portrayed negatively. I want women in my fiction, even in the m/m romance genre, to reflect the women that I know. I am not saying we can’t have female villains at all – but there needs to be more shades of grey.
Wave
From my perspective it doesn’t matter if there are few or no women in M/M romances because I read the genre for the men, not for the women, regardless of their roles in the books. But if authors decide to write female characters who interact with the protagonists, why bother if all you’re going to do is denigrate them? Do authors feel that they need women in M/M books because female readers would be uncomfortable reading about gay men in romantic relationships, having sex, (lots of sex) unless there was a woman in the book or actually in the mix?
If you are going to have females in these stories there is no need to demonize them and portray them as the bitches from hell, or that other character some authors love – the slut who would open her legs 24/7 to any man. In some cases these portrayals might be true to life e.g. the “barracks bunnies” and “buckle bunnies,” etc. but do we need to read about them in M/M stories? Are you not perpetuating old stereotypes about women which have very little validity if you consider the gender as a whole? I know authors like to feel that their characters are edgy, but in M/M romances this seems to be taken to extremes at times in terms of the women in the books.
As I indicated above, I read M/M books strictly for the men and their relationships, but perhaps authors should consider how they would feel if their sisters or mothers were characterized the way females in M/M books are portrayed. I’m not saying that female characters should always be described positively, but authors might want to give some thought to developing three dimensional people (with all their flaws and positive attributes) and add balance to the characters. It’s reasonable to expect that not all portrayals of females in M/M romances will be positive, but couldn’t we have some balance? Are all the women in your lives tramps or bitches? Why do female M/M writers feel that it is OK to portray their gender in such a negative and harmful way?
On the other hand, I have read a few delightful M/M books where the female characters are well drawn, funny, fully actualized women that anyone would be proud to know and I wish we had more of them.
To end my segment on a positive note, enclosed is a copy of a post I saved from exactly a year ago in Overthinking It, about why strong female characters are bad for women.:) Of course this is tongue in cheek, but maybe M/M writers have been taking lessons from characters in the movies.
Jenre
I think my views fall a little between Wave and Sean’s. Like Wave, I read m/m mostly for the male characters and many of my favourite m/m books contain no secondary female character. However, like Sean, I agree that if an m/m book is to reflect accurately on the life of a gay man then there should be scope for well written female characters.
I have to say that it’s rare in m/m fiction to find a female character that I like and identify with. On the whole they are made up of stereotypes – the fag hag, the annoying female friend whose actions cause more harm than good, the slapper who wants to separate the heroes, the desperate woman who won’t take no for an answer, the ex-wife who is only after money, etc, etc. If these are the sorts of women who are going to appear in m/m then I’d rather not have any female characters at all. If there is a woman in m/m then all too often I feel that they have only been placed in the book as the ‘token female’. These characters aren’t particularly well rounded and may often appear only in minor roles and usually take on the role of the caring sympathetic ear with whom the hero can pour out his troubles or, even more insulting in my opinion, as a homemaker who is interested only in her own family and home. I often wonder whether these ‘token females’ have been included so as to make the straight women who are reading m/m books more comfortable, and like Wave said, somehow legitimise our reading of books containing sex between men.
On the other hand, when done well the female character can counteract all the testosterone in an m/m book and is often the voice of sense when things might get a bit heated. I’ve seen it done well in quite a number of books and these friendships form some of the most realistic portrayals of women. After all many people, gay or straight, have a wide variety of friends of both genders and this should be shown in m/m books too. The only main objection I have is that there are too many men in m/m who are shown as having one female friend and no others. I have always find this to be odd, especially as in general people make close friends with people of the same gender, which implies either that the gay man has closer links with women than men – which is frankly rather insulting – or that straight men are not comfortable being friends with a gay man. My own experience tells me that neither of these ideas are right and yet there are very few characters in m/m who have straight male friends.
So to close my section, I do think there is a place for women in m/m in a wide variety of roles and as long as there is a clear purpose to the character and they are not relegated to stereotypes. Otherwise I’ll just take the men, thank you!
And that’s a wrap people!
Somebody needs to give me a definition of “fag hag.” *laugh*
For the record, I’m iffy about any kind of fictional females because I find that they often don’t come anywhere close to being identifiable for me. One of the most notable exceptions to this rule is Sean’s own T&D; I felt like Fran would be someone I could be best friends with. I liked Lisa a lot, too.
A vaguely disturbing historical implication of women being painted as villains in m/m is the fact that women were unwelcome in the early gay rights movement. There was a lot of distrust and hostility between the lesbian and gay male communities for some reason. Broadening out a bit, much of our culture seems to encourage and reinforce the perceived “gender divide.” Men and women are encouraged to view each other as intriguing but ultimately dangerous. “Sleeping with the enemy” and “The battle of the sexes” and what’s that stupid new movie set to come out? “The Ugly Truth”? The previews offend me; I don’t know if I’ll ever get around to seeing the film.
So I dunno if I have an explicit opinion on whether or not there should be women in m/m fiction, but I’ll say I appreciate a well-portrayed woman no matter what medium I find her in.
Hi Jules
What an interesting point you have made about the ‘battle of the sexes’. True too. This is possibly why in m/m books so many gay man have female friends. There isn’t that sexual tension which can simmer under a friendship between straight men and women. There is no ‘threat’ for the woman (or man) so in theory they can be comfortable with each other.
BTW, a ‘fag hag’ as far as I know, is a woman who hangs about with gay men and gets a kick out of seeing gay men kissing (or more!). Oh dear, in literary terms that would be me :).
I’m with Wave in that I read M/M for the men and their relationship. I don’t need females in the book but if they are there I wish they’d be better written than what’s usually out there now. Annoying, bitchy, slutty, bitter, mean and intrusive is not how I’d like women to be portrayed yet it’s how they come across in many M/M books. For that I’d prefer the book not have any female characters. Sure there are women like those I mentioned in real life but not all the time. Women and men can be friends and can have loving relationships that don’t include sex.
Great post Sean, Wave and Jen 🙂
Hi Lily
That’s exactly how I feel. I wouldn’t want to talk or socialise with those types of women in real life so why do I have to read about them?
I really don’t care about the personality and behavioral traits of ANY character, male or female, as long as that character is vividly drawn and not blandly derivative — like all those truly odious UF heroines. Hell, there’s boundless diversity in human nature. Why shouldn’t it be reflected in books?
Where m/m fiction is concerned, I only have one requirement beyond the above criteria: don’t let the female character(s) take too big a bite out of the protagonists’ spotlight. I get cranky when the wimmins spend too much time on stage.
That’s also a good point, KZ. I want to read the story of the two heroes, not one hero and his female best friend. I read one book a little while ago where nearly all the scenes between the heroes (apart from the sex) had an intrusive female character hanging around all the time either sticking her (unwanted imo) opinion in or just watching them. It ruined the book for me.
To be honest, I can give or take the female and/or stereotypical female character in m/m romance.
What it boils down to for me is whether the female secondary (which it usually is) character is relevant to the plot; that is, does the character – be it a fag hag, an interferring friend, a pyscho stalker or a well rounded person, etc, etc – work within the context of the story.
In addition to this, and despite many of us reading for fantasy or entertainment purposes, one of issues frequently mentioned in relation to m/m and the romance genre as a whole is its ‘realism’. By this I mean, can you imagine the situation happening in real life and does it work more for you as a reader because of it?
It is for this reason that my thinking on this topic aligns more with Sean (scary, hey Sean 🙂 ) insomuch that there is no such thing as a Gaytopia. Therefore, it’s more realistic to have female characters incorporated in a story regardless of mine and others preferences to read m/m romance primarily for the male protags.
It’s true that realism is important (even in romance) and this is where female characters often fail. They are not realistic, they do not act in ways which I am familiar with. Sometimes I wonder where this is a US/UK culture thing and I just don’t really understand the workings of a US female’s mind as opposed to the way I would act as a British female.
Jules, it’s true that the ‘battle’ of the sexes always comes into play, and that the ‘other’ is always perceived as ultimately dangerous – much like the ‘predatory gay’ is used in comedies so often. It’s a shame that the extreme always seems to be the one portrayed.
Lily, it does get tiring after a while when you read the same kind of characters over and over again. And when there’s only one female character, and she happens to be a glaring stereotype…
KZ, that’s the thing. Some people think that because it’s ‘just romance’ that you can get away without grounding the stories in a little bit of realism. But nothing turns me off a book more than plot or character tropes that take you far beyond the believability factor for even that genre.
Kris, I’m not surprised at all 😉 And I tell you, I think Gaytopia would be a pretty boring place. Although maybe a nice holiday destination.
Sean
I’ve just read a ‘gaytopia’ book. It was utterly ridiculous – believe me if you went for a visit you’d be bored within a few days ;).
This IS an interesting discussion.
I’m trying to think of the m/m stories I like best, and remembering whether or not I like the women in them.
I really like Fran in your book, Sean; I think her interaction with Simon is fantastic.
I like the females in JCP’s PsyCop series. They don’t intrude into Vic and Jacob’s relationship, but it’s nice that they’re there.
Another favourite pairing is Adrien English and Jake. Adrien’s step-sisters are really cool, and his Mum’s not bad at times.
I can’t really think of any females I’m not keen on, although Sandra from M. Chandler’s “Shadow of the Templar” series rubs me up the wrong way sometimes. She’s a very macho FBI agent, but not whiny at all.
So I guess as long as the females are feisty, don’t interfere with the two m/m characters, and know their place, or as Kris says “are relevant to the plot”, I don’t mind if they crop up now and then.
Hi gaycrow
I think there’s a big difference between female character who are ‘in and around’ a character’s life (like those that you have mentioned) where they get maybe a few scenes with one of the heroes, and those female characters who are there all the time. That’s when it gets a bit too much for me.
On the flip side there are female characters which hardly appear at all and yet when they do they disrupt the relationship between the heroes and change the course of the plot.
I love Adrien’s mother and step-sisters in JL’s books – and they’re really effectively used in bringing out another side to that character.
One of the roots of this goes back to fanfic, and it’s the Mary Sue problem. “Mary Sue” often gets used now as simply a name for author self-insertion of any kind, whether well or badly written, but it originated as a name for a particular type of author self-insertion — the unrealistically and obnoxiously idealised version of the author in a story written purely as a wish-fulfillment fantasy, the character loved by every other character, and hated by every reader other than the author herself and her close friends. It is in its original form an extremely derogatory term.
Of course, one development of this was that *any* original female character in a story would be scrutinised for signs of MarySuedom, on the assumption that such a character was probably the author’s wish-fulfillment vehicle rather than a necessary component of the plot. Any suggestion in the story that an OFC was a popular or competent person could be seized on as evidence of Mary Sue tendencies, even when the character was well-written and of a simply normal level of competence and popularity. I’ve encountered one person who insisted that *all* OFCs were Mary Sues.
If writing a perfectly normal person is going to get you accusations of “Mary Sue!”, you may well find it easier to simply not include any likeable female characters. This may mean not including any female characters at all, or it may mean including only the mirror images of the Mary Sue, the unrealistically negative OFCs.
And *that* particular writing habit came with a lot of slash writers when they moved into writing profic that looked like slash.
It’s not the only source of the problem, but I think it’s a significant component. And I think it’s going to continue to be a problem for a while, not least because some of the readers brought that habit with them as well. I know *I’ve* more than once had a “Mary Sue!” reaction that was probably unfair, simply because I’d seen too much of the genuine article in my recent reading and was over-sensitised.
Jules
This is something I’d never considered! I don’t read fan fiction so I’ve not come across the idea of a female character being an idealised form of the author. I’ve heard of ‘Mary Sue’ and thought that it referred to a female who was just too good to be true – too sweet and nice and perfect – but not heard the term used in the context. How interesting!
With that in mind, I can see why authors who have come from FF background may choose not to include a woman in their books in other than a very minor role.
Jules, I think you’re right in that a lot of these stereotypes may have been developed from fan fiction, kind of as an ‘easy’ plot contrivance to provide some drama for the protagonists. You just would hope for something more from stories within the m/m genre, where people have the scope to work within their own worlds and not someone else’s.
Hi Jules
You have now put an entirely different perspective on why readers are getting such crappy female characters in M/M books. I don’t read a lot of slash fiction (and only Kirk/Spock when I do)*g* so I never connected the dots to Mary Sue. However, isn’t it time authors moved on? So much has happened since the initial days of slash fiction and many M/M readers have no clue about Mary Sue – all we know is that there are lots of badly written 1 and 2 dimensional female characters in our favourite sub genre and we can’t understand why writers are feeding us a steady diet of these characters.
I hope now that we have opened the dialogue and invited comments from readers and writers that a few writers will get the message of what readers are looking for in these books. Surely it’s just as easy for a good writer to develop 3 dimensional characters?
Ohw now this is an interesting post. Remember what I said in the “upcoming” post? What women? Like Jenre I’ve read many books without women in it and I don’t mind it so much, because the one thing that really bothers me about women in erotica books (most of them, not all) is the airhead, bimbo, low self esteem type that seems to be haunting them. You see that in m/m books too.
And you know what is weird. A large proportion of the m/m books are written by women. So why then would you portray women in such a fashion?
It is also something i noticed in paperback books in the urban fantasy genre. You either have a strong female character like Sean Kennedy has them or you have the bimbo. Up till now only a few authors have female characters that a slightly flawed, but do not behave as airhead bimbo’s.
But back to the m/m books. I want to say that the portrayal of women in such a fashion is only in m/m books, but this is not true it happens just about everywhere and a small part of it has to do with taste, but it also comes back to literary devices, much as the “use of three fingers” “tying the condom in a knot” etc.
I believe if there are more authors who write strong, maybe slightly flawed (as in not perfect), opinionated female characters that are not a stereotype then the rest will follow.
*goes of to kill ebil mosquito*
Hi Larissa
I’ve realised that we are asking a tall order for authors: We want well rounded female characters who are flawed in some way and who are relevant to the plot but don’t take up much page time. LOL!
I’m glad I’m not an author!
Jen and Larissa,
Indeed! And now I’m a bit worried about my current WIP which includes f/f as well as m/m, and a female character who spends almost as much time in the spotlight as the protagonist!
Sean
I just woke up and the first thing I saw (since I’m reading the comments backwards) is that your current WIP “has both f/f and m/m and a female character who spends almost as much face time in the spotlight as the protagonist.” In what sub genre would you categorize this book? Is this general erotica? It definitely is not M/M.
I suppose, as an author if you are satisfied with the plot and the characters and the book, we can only wait and see how this mix works out. I will comment on some of the other observations by the other posters as soon as I have had a shot of java.
It’s definitely m/m because the focus is on the male characters. It’s just that there is a f/f couple in it as well who also share a lot of the story. It’s the steampunk story. It’s not going to be disguised so people aren’t aware before hand – the blurb will make sure to point that out. So people will be ‘warned’, because I know sometimes people can get funny about such things.
Sean, darling, you know how I feel about your WIP. I’m cosplaying one of the female characters. 😉
Ha, and I want the pictures to prove it.
You nailed it, Jen. That’s a perennial problem when it comes to any secondary character. Readers expect them to be three-dimensional, believable, relevant…yet unobtrusive. Duh-huh?
Another thing to keep in mind is that sometimes, certain “types” serve well as foils or as a source of comic relief. Again, their effectiveness lies in the detail and the delivery.
KZ
“That’s a perennial problem when it comes to any secondary character. Readers expect them to be three-dimensional, believable, relevant…yet unobtrusive. Duh-huh?”
Since it’s so difficult to create believable secondary female characters in this sub genre, that are 3 dimensional and don’t fit the stereotypes we discussed earlier, why bother at all? My solution is probably the best. No women in M/M books!:)
It seems from what you and some of the authors said that there are a thousand reasons/excuses why authors can’t create believable characters – from readers’ accusations of creating Mary Sues to “readers’ expectations are too high”. I thought writing was all about using your imagination to create believable characters and a plot that makes the reader go WoW.
I know. I never had high standards for characters in e-books, but I did in paperback books. I was influenced at first by Laurell K. Hamilton, but later that changed with Sherrilyn Kenyon, because her characters are perfectly flawed and actually have depths.
Only I realized when reading this post that I actually started to have standards for characters in m/m books and e-books because there are such good authors. So Sean, I don’t think you need to worry!
I suppose I don’t really read enough m/m to notice the stereotypes, or perhaps–because I read mostly historical–they are less prevalent in that genre?
Larissa makes a good point, that it’s a bit of a big task to make a fully fleshed out 3d character (specially when many m/m books are novellas or long short stories) but not letting them take over the plot.
I’ve never conciously included a female character “just because” I think there should be a token, and although my Elizabeth in Transgressions was tagged a evil bitch of stereotypical doom (or some such description) by one reviewer I didn’t mean her to be a stereotype, she was just a girl who got pregnant and used the opportunity to try and get the man she wanted. Hardly stereotypical, as woman HAVE done that kind of thing for bazillions of years.
In Junction X I have a wife, and at first glance she does seem stereotypically shrewish, but I try hard to build on that. WHY is she shrewish? Is it because she’s a 2dimensional bitch? Or could it possibly be that her husband is a crap lover, thoughtless of her happiness and (although she doesn’t know this) having an affair with his best friend? As others have said above, you can have any kind of woman, stereotypical or not, but give them reasons to behave the way they do, and make it realistic.
My latest WIP has no female characters in it all all, which will please some, and annoy others undoubtedly, but you can’t please everyone!
Hi Erastes!
Of course you always have to write the story for yourself first and foremost, but you’re right when you say it doesn’t matter if the character is evil as long as they’re well-rounded. Often when those stereotypes are used they are just caricatures and nothing but the basest of reasoning is assigned to them, if at all.
I agree. I hate it when a woman is portrayed as a bitch or spiteful with the only explanation being ‘well, that’s just her personality’. There must be a reason why they act as they do. I think these types of characters are the hardest to pull off, especially when you don’t have the time or space to delve into their pysche and still have room for the heroes.
I didn’t mind Elizabeth in Transgressions, especially as we had her pov a little which gave us the insight into just how desperate she was to cover up her unplanned pregnancy. That made it so I could understand why she attempted such drastic measures.
I think the point we are trying to make Erastes is that too often the only types of women in M/M romances or gay historicals are scheming, spiteful bitches whose role in the books seems to be to disrupt the protagonists; or the slut, another stereotype. Surely there are other characterizations that authors can draw on rather than feeding us these stereotypes in so many books?
Authors are supposed to use their imaginations in their stories, yet we don’t get much imagination in their female characters because most writers seem to give us the same types, over and over and over again in M/M books. This is really wearing. Also it seems that it’s almost always the female authors who do this consistently. Why? Do they have an aversion to women as fully rounded characters?
As I said in the post, I could care less if there are no women in M/M books (or gay historicals) because I read this sub genre for the men’s relationships, but if you do have women, surely authors could do a lot better than the crappy characterizations that we have to suffer through before the guys get their HEA or HFN or whatever .
Erastes, I agree about Elizabeth. Though she messes up the lovers’ lives, she is in a pretty tricky spot herself and just trying to figure a way out of it. She hurts other people, but she’s kind of stuck with few alternatives, so I disapprove of her actions, but understand them. She’s not acting out of pure malice, which makes a difference.
I’ve just finished Standish and I liked Constance a lot in that. She seemed like a fine person and someone I’d want on my side for sure. Though she had her hopes about Ambrose she didn’t let the fact they could come to nothing make her take her disappointment out on him.
So there’s definitely a range of women in your stories.
Wow, everyone’s been chatty this morning, um, afternoon, evening. Whatever. Stupid globe. 🙂
Anyway, I have no issues with women in m/m books EXCEPT when they play the role of overbearing friend who feels compelled to run to the love interest and tell him he’s not good enough for her dear friend, she doesn’t want to see him hurt and he better back the eff off. Hello? Are you his mother or his friend? I would NEVER presume to tell another adult who or who they can’t be in a relationship with (even if I think its doomed) and I can’t believe the gumption of people who believe they know better. So when that character comes up it just makes me want to slap someone because 9 times out of 10 when it happens, the hero in question pats her on the head and goes “its okay, its because she loves me”. Umm, hell no. With friends like that who needs enemies? Dump the bitch. Maybe this comes back to Jen’s point of me not seeing myself in that character so unable to relate. She doesn’t seem “real” to me.
I think there are lots of “normal” women out there in m/m books. We probably don’t note them because they are “normal”. You don’t notice the person walking down the street wearing jeans and a t-shirt but the one in the Cinderella dress with pink hair (yes, in my suburbs) you notice and talk about with your friends.
So I’m okay with women in general as long as they don’t tip over into that shrieking harpy overprotective for-your-own good category. Yeah, there probably ARE real women out there like that, but I sure as hell don’t want to read about them and not see them portrayed as the “good” guy looking out for their friend.
Tam
As you know, the annoying female friend is also one of my pet m/m peeves. 🙂
I agree, they wouldn’t behave like that in real life – unless they are 10 and in the school playground.
Tam
You have women in pink hair dressed in cinderella outfits in your neighbourhood? I thought that only happened here.:)
Seriously, I can’t believe some of the female characters I meet in M/M books because I never meet them in real life. I know these books (erotica in general) are fantasies, but they must be other women’s fantasies because I never had a fantasy that included women such as these.
Your point about the interfering friend always giving the hero(s) advice is an excellent one. Who are these people in RL? Are they psychologists? Are these types of people from the authors’ own experience? Or do they dream them up? Just leave the guys to work out their problems on their own and move the women to het land if these are the characters you are going to give us.
Oh but that was me 😉
But seriously, there are “normal” people in m/m books, but they often serve a certain function whereas the airhead bimbo is just decoration or serves the function of the author’s fantasy or uncreativity.
(hehehe this made me think of the time we went grocery shopping in medieval outfits and the time we have a performance in the city centre of Utrecht and there were knights chasing assassins. We were definitely noticed, whereas the man with the camera was ignored. Hmmm not relevant)
Wave: Trust me, I was a bit boggled as well. It was 3:00 in the afternoon so unless we suddenly have a niche market in fairy tale hookers in the suburbs I have no freaking clue what she was doing out there. LOL
I suppose for every character I say “There’s no way in hell that person would exist in real life” there is someone who will say “Oh god, I know someone exactly like that.” 🙂 But just because someone exists, I don’t wanna read about them necessarily. If a hero is going to have a female friend I want them to be like me (only prettier) so that I can relate to the story more. Or maybe I’m just far too sensible for fiction. LOL Sensible doesn’t always make for good drama.
Tam and Wave,
I want to come and live in your suburbs!
It’s such a delicate balancing act, like Jenre says, but I suppose one that you have to do with all supporting characters in romances. Anybody who isn’t part of the romance can’t get too much page time, or, however well written and likeable they are, people will start wanting them out of the way.
There needs to be a range of women characters I think, just as there’s a range of different types of men in the book. Of course there can be a female villain. And of course there can be women the leads don’t like. But if all the women the heroes run into are horrible people, or they don’t like them, it starts to look like it’s the writer, or the hero that has some kind of issue with women.
One book that bugs me, not for having horrible women in it, but for the lack of women is J L Langley’s My Fair Captain. It’s not that I mind a story where there aren’t many women because the lead character’s life realistically doesn’t bring them into contact with many. But the sci-fi element in that book means that the upper classes of the planet have done away with needing daughters at all and the men all marry each other (yes, it is a literal Gaytopia!) What creeped me out was that since it’s the ruling class doing this, then there are no high-status women on the planet at all. They are literally relegated to being second class citizens and have no representation on the power structure, not even as an influence on powerful men. That was kind of skeevy to me.
Hi Junkfoodmonkey
Re J.L. Langley’s sci Regency series, in the first book My Fair Captain, the Planet Regelence was a gaytopia where being gay was the norm and there was no real need for women since children were created artificially. Therefore there was only a little girl in the book, as far as I can recall. However the next book in the series, The Englor Affair, was the exact opposite where on the Planet Englor being gay was regarded as an abomination, which was kind of strange since the King was gay.*g* In TEA one of the protagonists had a very good female friend, Pru, who I thought was a fully developed, 3 dimensional character – she was warm, funny, and loyal to a fault. I wish we had more “Pru’s” in M/M books.
Thanks for that, Wave. I haven’t read The Englor Affair yet, it’s on the To Read list. (I need to win the lottery, so I can spend all day reading! Then I might catch up one day. :D)
I’ve got a “Deb” in the novel I’m writing now who I hope people will one day speak of in the same way as the “Pru” you mention. 😉
I know when I was writing my m/m NaNoWriMo story last year I had a hell of a time getting any female characters in at all, never mind making them good guys. There was the main character’s mother, and if you thought she was a bitch that was only because you hadn’t met his grandmother yet. The mother of the guy he did end up with appeared a few times and she was nicer, but she wasn’t in it that much. His aunt was nice, but most of the scenes she was in ended up being cut for pacing reasons. It was tricky stuff. I tried to sprinkle in generally nice women characters in minor roles to try to balance things out a bit. His female boss for example, who was sympathetic when his Crazy Ex-Boyfriend from Hell started stalking him and ringing him at work. She didn’t treat that any differently than she said she’d done in the past for women staff with similar Crazy Ex-Boyfriends for Hell.
Then there’s my series spun off from my fanfics, where one of the guys has a girlfriend that I’ve somehow made the readers like. 😀 She sort of started out as his beard. But she means a lot more than that to him now. And she knows what he feels for the other guy. It’s not exactly a love triangle, just a very… complicated relationship. I’m about to have them break up, but that’s only the next step towards getting them married. Like I said… complicated. 😀
IE ate my reply. So this new series spun off from slash, is this woman a significant other? Is this like a menage? Is that what “complicated” means? Who is getting married? The guy and the girl or two guys? What’s the name of the series? You can email me if you like.
Oddly enough, this makes me think of the whole Chocolate Man thing I was *ahem* discussing and also, I had bit of a rant about fag hags too. Man, I’m a ranty, opinionated bitch, eh? *grin*
My thing with women cast in that role is the same as probably all of your opinions wrapped up in one and I still want to know why the woman has to be a bitch OR she’s the well-meaning-won’t-take-no-for-answer-I-know-how-to-fix-your-life-JUST-STOP-TRYING-TO-STOP-ME type.
Time to find bloody common ground here. Okay, some chicks are bitchy. And yes some are well-meaning. And yes, some chicks totally like the sight of guys macking.
And crazy enough, some don’t at all. Some are just good freaking friends that you can hang out with, drink a brew with, and have a movie night with. She’s someone who’s smartass or sensible or clever (or all of the above) and hey, she’s pretty because sensible does not equal ugly (can someone PLEASE fix this stereotype too?)
She is called The Friend. She may even be called The Best Friend (though I’m kinda done with this one too. What’s wrong with just having a gal pal? Does she need to be his best friend FOREVAH?). And crazy enough, she just wants what’s best for her gay guy pal kinda like she wants the best for the rest of her friends, straight, gay, bi, or trans.
So she might do the interrogation but she’ll do it in a straightforward way. Or maybe she’ll just observe, tell our main guy what’s up and then wish him luck. And if he calls her at midnight, freaking the hell out, she’ll meet him for a beer and they’ll play pool or walk around the park like he has done many times for her.
Funny thing? You can do all that with a guy too. There’s no damn difference in being friends with women and friends with men because its all about personality.
Let’s try writing some damn personality now.
*steps off her soap box* It is too early for me to be ranting but ya know….*hee* Hi everyone!
Hi Zoe
Excellent job on the post re the chocolate man.:) I really never thought of black people in terms of food and that really threw me. Can’t authors use terms like “dark,” “brown” or “black” to describe us without thinking that we would be offended? No one is ever offended by the term “white” used to describe caucasians.*g*
Is the “friend” you’re talking about what is now commonly referred to as the fag hag? I don’t know why we can’t have three dimensional female characters who are not any of the aforementioned types that permeate M/M books. Do female M/M writers take special classes on how to create the worst vengeful bitches as characters? I would just like a woman in an M/M book who has no agenda other than wanting her friend to be happy, or who is the protagonist’s boss without having desgns on him, or something equally simple. I mentioned Pru from The Englor Affair by J.L. Langley as one example of a terrific female character. There is also Celia in Sex, Lies and Celluloid by Chris Owen and Jodi Payne who is one extremely funny, kickass sidekick, and Fran from Tigers and Devils by Sean Kennedy. However these characters are not the norm but the exceptions.
I hope that this discussion will show that M/M fans have high expectations of their authors. We love them but when we think a few characterizations need tweaking or changing, we speak up.
Ohh. I want to read a book with Zoe’s girls in it. 🙂 That’s exactly it. Normal people. Normal and not crazy is good (unless they are supposed to be a serial killer then normal doesn’t cut it, but generally speaking.)
Sean and Wave — yes, it would be nice if writers moved on, but if you’ve had years of being accused of writing Mary Sues every time you put in a female secondary character, that sort of aversion therapy can be hard to overcome without conscious effort. Particularly as there’s a bit of the “oh no, Mary Sue” reaction to any OCF going on in profic fandom, even if it’s not (as far as I personally have seen) as bad as in fanfic fandom.
I’m sufficiently bloody-minded to say up yours to anyone who tries that on me, but even so I’m always aware that if I choose to make a sympathetic supporting character female rather than male, there will be people out there who will immediately seize on that character as a Mary Sue, and there are a lot of writers with a less… robust… attitude to the more idiotic accusations of Mary-Sueness. I think discussions like this might help to show that well-rounded female characters will actually be appreciated, although as Larissa points out, there is still the problem of a well-rounded character who nevertheless does not take over the plot. 🙂
I like female characters around the edges. A novel with only the boys gets pretty dull pretty quickly. There are men and women in the world. There should be men and women in the characters’ lives. They may only be incidental folks but they are there.
I’ve written women as grocery clerks and nurses, social workers and politicians, carnival performers and assassins, domestics and receptionists, doctors and dancers, Episcopalian priests and adventuresses.
These are people the guys see regularly (grocery clerks) or occasionally (nurses), who commission their adventure (politican) and those who try to thwart it (adventuress).
If you’re doing a short story, you can have them just stay in and screw. If you’re doing a novel, there are going to be women they encounter in the course of the plot.
Hi Angelia
“Episcopalian priests and adventuresses?” How did I miss those?:)
Of course in RL there are always people of the other sex milling around and only in sci fi books can we totally eliminate one gender. But if we’re going to have female characters in the scenes in a peripheral way, don’t you think authors should try to ensure that they are 3 dimensional?
“If you’re doing a short story, you can have them just stay in and screw”
Angelia, sometimes you slay me.*g*
This is a very interesting topic. Thanks for having it. Goodness knows, I’ve probably created female characters that are stereotypical, though I would hope not, but I know better than to say I never have. Now I’ll be paying attention when I write a story to ensure I don’t do it again. 🙂
Thanks everyone. I enjoyed reading the comments
T.A.
I’m trying to remember if you did in fact have similar characters in your books as the ones mentioned in the post, and I can’t think of a single one. I will have to recheck:)
If your books are going to contain these characters in the future then I can only suggest that there should be a good rationale for why that person is the way she is, or what’s the point of having her in the story in the first place. There should be a balance – not all bad or all good, just like in RL. Even though these books are fantasies, some aspects should probably not veer too far off from RL just for sensationalism. Just my two cents.
“You have women in pink hair dressed in cinderella outfits in your neighbourhood? I thought that only happened here.:)”
He he he. I can top that. The pink hair cinderellas are MEN in my neighborhood. You see it all in Berkeley! *g*
Now on to more serious matters… I think I can count on two hands the number of strong, well-written and -developed secondary female characters that I’ve read in m/m: Stella in GayLife.com; Dru in The Englor Affair; Fran in T&D; Helena Stewart in the Cambridge Fellows Mysteries; Adrien’s female family members (Lisa and the girls); Scotty in Sins of Arrogance; Finn in Dreaming of You. I’m sure I’m missing a few, but that’s what I can remember quickly.
I don’t mind females in my m/m as long as they’re realistic, they serve to further the plot, and don’t hijack the story. As KZ said, I want ALL of my characters vivid and well-drawn, period.
Lynn
You’re just trying to top Tam and me.:) We do have guys flaunting their stuff but not exactly in my neighbourhood – I would have to go downtown in certain areas to see them in full regalia.*g*
On the matter of female characters in m/m, I don’t understand why most m/m authors just don’t seem to care enough about this. They offer excuses but no remedies. My point is that I would rather not have females in these books if all we’re going to get are retreads of characters that are in the books today. I can’t believe writers of our own gender treat us so disrespectfully. How can we take issue with male writers if they do the same?
Thank you so much Wave, Sean and Jenre for this post. Reading through the comments, it’s a bit of a relief that other people can see the same problems I do with many female characters in m/m stories (I won’t even get started on other genres/media forms). In my more exasperated moments it feels like women are either the “bitchy ex-wife/co-worker” or the “well-meaning but silly, interfering friend/sister that the protagonists roll their eyes over”. It does make me appreciate my favourite writers who, not so coincidentaly, actually do write women as something other than bitchy or unintelligent.
Although it’s understandable that there’s not a lot of time to really flesh out secondary characters, especially in short stories and novellas, I would like to see more diversity in these characters (not just the female ones). For any story in any genre at all (not just m/m) I would feel pretty enthusiastic about some mention being made of their lives outside their role in the protagonist’s lives. For instance, Fran in T&D comes across as a warm and smart person who has a job & interests outside of her role as “wife and friend”. Or Izzie in ZA Maxfield’s “Physical Therapy” – a mid-fifties body builder who is a good friend and voice of reason on occasion when asked, but doesn’t interfere because she’s too busy working and living her own life.
I just want some more positive portrayals of women. I have had more friendly, smart and competent co-workers than waspish ones. I’d like to see the former more represented in fiction. 🙂 Although in fiction characters have to be more than real life in some ways, one-dimensional caricatures are not fun.
Hi Meraehl
I hope that those authors who can’t be bothered writing anything better than one dimensional females in their books will read comments from readers like yourself. We do notice these deficiencies and wish that authors would stop writing characters like those mentioned in the post. It’s no fun seeing your gender constantly marginalized or made fun of in the sub genre that you love.
I can’t speak for straight erotica books or het because I very rarely read them but these female characters seem to dominate m/m.
Thanks very much for commenting.
I’ll confess to having not completely read all the comments, but I wanted to throw in my two cents worth…even if they wind up being two cents you’ve already collected.
I do live in a world that is all gay, all the time. Granted that world doesn’t actually exist outside my head, so no worries Sean, you havent been left out. That being said, I couldnt imagine my all-gay inner-world without straight chicks. I grew up in a house full of women and have ALWAYS had a multitude of female friends.
For me a gay world without women would be like eating Oreo’s without the creamy filling. Thanks, but no thanks! : )
Hi Ethan
It’s good to see you!
You mean there’s no gaytopia outside of your head?:) Am I the only woman who wants to read stories located in gaytopia? :DDD
Seriously, women in gay stories are great as long as they are not tramps or knowitall dickheads, don’t take over the books, and are 3 dimensional characters. Surely, that’s not too much to ask!
Oh my…it’ll be interesting to see what you think once the sequel to S-P is done. LOL…it’s going to have gay & het sex!
I know! I may not survive the process without severe mental scaridge. ; )
Ha ha, I totally agree, Ethan!
With films like Muriels Wedding & anything by Baz Luhrmann, I was hoping Australia might be the gay oasis, Sean?
So, let me get this striaight? : )
Vegemite isn’t secret code for mighty-lesbian?
‘Down under’ is an actual term referring to geography as oppossed to a more polite way to say, ‘On your knee’s, bitch?’ Damn it, I can’t believe I fell for that! : )
Ethan
You’ll be the death of me.:) If I hear of you taking a vacation in Oz I’ll know it’s to check out Sean and whether your idea of Down Under is valid.
Oh man, I came to this party late. We’ve suffered under an extremely conservative PM for the past decade, and as a result the country’s become a little nastier. Hopefully that will be resolved soon, and we Aussies can go back to our freeloving, freewheeling ways!
“Lynn
You’re just trying to top Tam and me.:) We do have guys flaunting their stuff but not exactly in my neighbourhood – I would have to go downtown in certain areas to see them in full regalia.*g*”
I happen to live on a super busy recreation/walking path that is a major thoroughfare to public transportation, so we get to see it all. Plus Downtown Berkeley and the UCB campus arevery active hotbeds of all that is zany. Nothing is off-limits. I’m sure I mentioned Naked Guy before, known for decades for wandering around campus, well, naked. Died recently, very sad.
Lynn
I would like a naked guy, but in my bed, not wandering the streets.:) You must have a lot of fun in your neighbourhood.*g*
I suspect some of this also comes from too close an emulation of certain tropes in traditional m/f romance. There are plenty of exes from hell and interfering best friends in Mills&Boon who exist purely to provide conflict, show how wonderful the heroine is by contrast, or push the plot along the formulaic path. Make the heroine a boy instead of a girl, but leave everything else the same, and you may be left with nothing but the bitches and interfering friends for female characters.
This is not good writing. I did have an ex-from-hell in one of my books, though a male version of same. And three chapters in, I realised that my hero is a sub but nobody’s doormat, successful in his career, and well-adjusted. Why would he have got involved with someone who was an obvious jerk? So as the story develops, you see that the initial view of the ex is through the eyes of a very hurt man seeing only the worst side of him. He’s behaved badly but not because he’s the sort of dick no sane guy would get involved with in the first place. I think it makes the book a lot better. But it would have been all too easy to slot into that pattern of Evil Ex, because it *is* an established pattern in published books.
I think you are probably right, Jules. Although m/m romance does strive to break away from the tired tropes associated with m/f romance, it’s still very easy to slip into those tried and tested formulas.
Do you think there are some writers who just can’t actually write women characters at all? And should probably therefore avoid having them in a story as anything beyond a passing waitress or something?
I’m convinced this is the case, not just from reading m/m or fanfic, but from all kinds of genres. I usually cite the case of the British sfi-fi comedy show Red Dwarf, which featured an all male cast for most of its run. And those characters were fantastic. But any time they wrote a woman character she was terrible. They seem to think all women are rather posh, and interested mostly in ponies, ballet, Jane Austen and cottage cheese. So I used to groan when a female character showed up, because I knew however good a job the actress tried to do, the character probably wasn’t going to work. How could they be so good, sometimes brilliant with the male characters and so awful with the women characters? They are clearly good writers, yet they have this one blind spot. Strange.
Yeah, but Red Dwarf was written by male sci-fi geeks!!!! LOL.
You may have a point JFM, just because m/m is written mostly by women doesn’t mean that all authors can write good female characters. That fact that there is an expectation by female readers that they should be able to do that, doesn’t make it true.
Wave,
I think the characterization should depend on how much page time the character has. Well-rounded can take too much time and space for very minor characters.
Kim Chin-sun, the clerk in her father’s grocery, has only a few lines. But we find out she is a nice person, knows her customers and keeps an eye on them.
However, Mother Vivian, in GLAD HANDS, has several pages. In that time, we learn she is wise, intelligent and compassionate, has a good grounding in several faith traditions as well as her own, is a mom-to-be when her wife delivers and has known our hero long enough to be just a little overfamiliar.
More face-time=more rounded character.
Sarah Brown, Roaring 20s Adventuress, is coming out August 30th.
Angelia
I do realize that we can’t have well rounded characters without certain pre existing conditions such as a lot of face time. I just don’t always want to read about bitches and whores and if these characters are all that readers get in terms of females in m/m books I would rather pass.
I’m sorry I wouldn’t be able to review Sarah Brown, Roaring 20s Adventuress because, as you know, the blog only reviews M/M but I’ll check out your other releases. Thanks very much for commenting.
Wave,
lol. Roaring 20s Adventuress is a joking title for the character, not the book. Sarah is from Curse of the Pharaoh’s Manicurists, which is m/m (actually, it classifies as bisexual, since there is an mmf scene).
Yes, she is one of the villains. Yes, she is ruthless. But I’ve tried to make sure the audience knows her motivations and WHY she acts the way she does. I worried about making her like that, but she insisted.
I come out of fandom, Star Wars slash fandom. And I hatehate HATE the “Leia is an ice-bitch” trope that turns up a lot in fiction. Over on Luke_and_Han, we tended to be careful of that but wary of making her too supportive.
There’s a huge swath of territory between fag-hag and high-iron bitch. I’d like to see m/m writers do more in there with their secondary characters.
Sorry to be so late to the party — we’ve had houseguests for a solid week!
It’s obvious that people have strong feelings about the topic, so good for you Wave, Jenre & Sean for starting the discussion!
I’m sure I’ll be more aware of the women in my projects and how (and why!) they are portrayed the way they are. The latest thing I’m working on has no female characters at all…it may have other issues, but at least it won’t have THIS one. 😉
Hi Janey
Thanks very much for commenting.
This discussion was sparked by a number of recent books that I read and I suppose that Sean and Jen had also noticed the trend towards negative characterizations of women in m/m books. Hopefully this discussion will lead to some changes. Looking forward to your newest book.:)
I am so late, but I saw this on the popular topics and wanted to add my two cents. My attention span is blah today so I only read about half the post opinions and none of the reader comments, but what I wanted to say is not so much a defense argument against women being portrayed badly in gay fiction but I wanted to comment on trends in general. As an analytical person I frequently find similarities in stories–that is to say, I tend to link a topic that has been beat to death over and over again in the books I read. For example: I’ve noticed a prevalence in gay fiction for men getting drunk and making out or making confessions they would never have normally make if they were sober.I am guilty as charged for using this tactic, but “I” am only one author. When taken into consideration with dozens of authors who have used this same ‘plot device’ does this really reflect gay fiction author’s opinions on how men communicate or overcome their ‘gay shyness’ or is this a coincidence that so many of us use this plot device. In other words, have I noticed it because so many authors have put it in their story just the ‘once’? The same thing can be said about creating a female ‘b*tch’. Has this subject come to light because dozens of author’s used this tactic only ‘once’. Whose fault is it that so many authors have the same idea?
Heh, I don’t know if I’m making any sense at this point, but what I am trying to get across is perhaps it is not the ‘mindset’ of the author or their intention to make females look terrible in gay fiction. There must be a villain, yes? And if every author that wrote gay fiction used a female villain in one of their stories it would still seem like gay fiction author’s were wrongfully stereotyping female’s in their stories.
On the other hand I’ve read plenty of novels where the male villain was so grossly evil that I cringed, and you never hear about men being portrayed badly. Maybe it is because their is a positive male role to balance him out in gay fiction. Perhaps then, what stories need are more positive female roles, even if the villain is a woman.
I almost always have women in my m/m books and they are almost always positive. Why on earth should they be negative or absent? That’s like saying everyone in a m/m book should be gay. Why? Is that real life? I don’t write fantasy and I don’t read it, so I women in that world and to portray them negatively all the time is like gays used to be shown in the past — either the bad guys, sinners who needed to be punished at the end of the book, or the butt of jokes. That was insulting to gays then and it’s insulting to women now.
Pat
My point was – if writers are only going to portray women negatively in M/M books then don’t write them as characters. I would sooner not have them and have the guys live in gaytopia, than have the bitchy, whining, manipulative, whoring, crappy women which seem to pervade M/M romances.
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We had an excellent example on the site a couple of days ago in a book that Lynn reviewed which gave the female in the book almost all of the characteristics described above.
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I’m hoping that some of the authors who read this post will change their evil ways and give us real women of good character. Of course there always will be villians – male and female – but let’s not go overboard on the female harpy.
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Thanks for commenting Pat and I appreciate your perspective. As I’m sure you can tell, this is a sore subject for me.
In which case I heartily agree with you. I go further, don’t portray anyone stereotypically. I’d even go so far as to say a good writer will even approach true villains with an eye to making them human — nobody ever sees themselves as evil, everyone is a hero in their own story, and that wold include people like right wing evangelicals who think gays and everyone who isn’t a right wing evangelical will burn in hell are heroes to themselves. Be honest and portray them that way — trust me, their evilness will show through and the story will be richer for not having shallow, cardboard bad guys.
Pat
We make the point many times in our reviews, about the stereotypes in M/M books – not just women but all the “evil” right wingers and religious zealots who permeate these books. The real bigots and villains are the next door neighbours and the “friends” who never invite you over to dinner because you’re “different,” not the over the top characters in a lot of M/M books.
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I guess it’s more fun for authors to write the characters the way they are currently portrayed, but it takes a lot more skill and it’s more challenging to write people they way they really are.